23 posts in this topic

Is there a machine that is both combined with punching hole and shaping the ends of sway bars process during hot forging? Where can I get this machine? What is the size dimensions of this machine?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say a good hydraulic press with appropriate tooling will do the job. As far as I know...

Bests:

Gergely

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Industrially a drop forge set up is probably used.  It makes a huge difference if you only want to make a couple or if you want to make a million.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome aboard Tim, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header it will be a BIG help answering your questions.

You're obviously not asking as a hobbyist or a guy helping a friend make custom sway bars for his dune buggy. Sounds to me like you want to start a business maybe making custom sway bars.

What you describe is a job for a closed die forging hammer or press, a very serious piece of equipment with a long list of support equipment and tools necessary to put to work. Heck to do it right you need to start from below ground up that kind of hammer or press needs the right kind of foundation under it. Heck you have to be in the right place to even be considered for a permit to run such tools.

If you just want to make a set or two then learn to forge and learn the processes and techniques necessary to make what you want. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For high performance sway bars most are hollow tube with heim joints on the ends or TIG welded assemblies.    If  your are looking because you have broken one.. Just go to the scrappers and pull one.. 

Ideally we all need more information to give you the best information.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Welcome aboard Tim, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header it will be a BIG help answering your questions.

You're obviously not asking as a hobbyist or a guy helping a friend make custom sway bars for his dune buggy. Sounds to me like you want to start a business maybe making custom sway bars.

What you describe is a job for a closed die forging hammer or press, a very serious piece of equipment with a long list of support equipment and tools necessary to put to work. Heck to do it right you need to start from below ground up that kind of hammer or press needs the right kind of foundation under it. Heck you have to be in the right place to even be considered for a permit to run such tools.

If you just want to make a set or two then learn to forge and learn the processes and techniques necessary to make what you want. 

Frosty The Lucky.

I'm actually helping out a factory to produce 1 sway bar per minute as my project at University. Currently they are punching and shaping using different machines. These tool changes that make the production slow. That is why I'm finding out if there is a machine that have tool changes with combined punching end hole and shaping the end. Both ends that is.

46 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

For high performance sway bars most are hollow tube with heim joints on the ends or TIG welded assemblies.    If  your are looking because you have broken one.. Just go to the scrappers and pull one.. 

Ideally we all need more information to give you the best information.. 

This production is for solid sway bars which uses hot forging. The company wants to produce 1 sway bar per minute. Currently they are punching half way through to make a hole at the end, then remove the flash, and finally punch the hole all the way though. Is there a machine that have both processes combined (punching and shaping)? and does punching and shaping at the same time will damage the die? how can this be reduced?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, tim likuwit said:

I'm actually helping out a factory to produce 1 sway bar per minute as my project at University. Currently they are punching and shaping using different machines. These tool changes that make the production slow. That is why I'm finding out if there is a machine that have tool changes with combined punching end hole and shaping the end. Both ends that is.

This production is for solid sway bars which uses hot forging. The company wants to produce 1 sway bar per minute. Currently they are punching half way through to make a hole at the end, then remove the flash, and finally punch the hole all the way though. Is there a machine that have both processes combined (punching and shaping)? and does punching and shaping at the same time will damage the die? how can this be reduced?

If you are doing one size rod.. all you need is 1 die with 3 stations (dies sunk) on it..    One for roughout, 2nd for punch and 3rd for flash.. You could get away with a 2 station die but you would need to figure out proper flow dynamics to do this and it would mean a larger hammer to do more work at one blow.. 

How much money does the company have to invest in new tooling?   A 3 station die on a large enough drop hammer would take less then a minute. 3 Hits and it would be finished..  Maybe 5 seconds total per end.. 

One of the problems with this kind of operation is the extra investment in tooling, furnaces, and man power.. 

What are the cycle times from start to finish now? 

What size are the bars?    Key factor missing.. 

There is no way to hand forge for production as fast as closed dies.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

If you are doing one size rod.. all you need is 1 die with 3 stations (dies sunk) on it..    One for roughout, 2nd for punch and 3rd for flash.. You could get away with a 2 station die but you would need to figure out proper flow dynamics to do this and it would mean a larger hammer to do more work at one blow.. 

How much money does the company have to invest in new tooling?   A 3 station die on a large enough drop hammer would take less then a minute. 3 Hits and it would be finished..  Maybe 5 seconds total per end.. 

One of the problems with this kind of operation is the extra investment in tooling, furnaces, and man power.. 

What are the cycle times from start to finish now? 

What size are the bars?    Key factor missing.. 

There is no way to hand forge for production as fast as closed dies.. 

Its the process for solid sway bars which uses hot forging. I'm researching about their initial stage of their process. They're taking about 90 minutes for the whole process from start to finish. Finish as in until packaging. The forging process they're doing is slow because they heat, bulge, punch, shape and cool down one end at the time. The cooling time is about half an hour and they cool down both ends first before going to the next machine in the overall process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It'll be much easier for people to help you and answer your questions if you would provide the answers to the question they ask. We on IFI don't generally ask questions when someone asks for help without good reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you contacted anyone who makes these machines to even see if it is possible to do what your suggesting ?

 

Dale Russell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tim: So far you've asked a very non specific question looking for a specific answer. That can't happen in any meaningful way. You are also avoiding telling us where you are., That's 2.

You keep repeating your question parsed slightly differently as if that makes a difference. That's 3

Right now you claim it takes 90 minutes to make one sway bar. Having read your posts to date I believe THAT is accurate.

You'd LIKE to reduce production time to 1 minute? Wouldn't anybody who builds parts as demanding as sway bars! #4

Look, we get what you're asking but there are a few problems giving you meaningful answers. Those are answers that have anything to do with reality or practicality. Something you can actually do.

The most advanced manufacturers on EARTH can't do what you want to, not without using metals so advanced the sway bars would cost more than the vehicle BEFORE it was made.

Yeah, you can do the hot forging on one machine. Learn what's actually involved in the process and take your pick, there are a number of possibilities. Unfortunately you don't know enough to ask questions that CAN be answered. You don't know enough to know how little you know. I think that's a summation so I won't mark it #5.

Adding up the obvious points I have to believe #1, In what ever country you live you do not have the technical base to manufacture high strength forgings competitively. #2, You personally don't have any real connection to whoever wants to try making a living making sway bars. It sounds more like a contest with a "grand Prize" awarded for whoever invents a needed thing. In this case a way to magically make sway bars in under 1 minute instead of 90 minutes. I know you said the "forging" but seem to think half an hour to cool properly isn't part of the forging process.

I'm not telling you to go away, I'm telling you what you ask can't be answered for the above reasons. First you won't reveal where you are so we MIGHT be able to point you in the right direction. Secondly You don't know enough to ask an answerable question nor enough to understand the answer if it dropped in your lap. Lastly you're asking for a virtual impossibility.

Like I say we'd like to help but we can't.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Progressive die for drop forging; been around at least 100 years   take a look at the multi die set up in this video hot forging axes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV-aAsKGnFk

Really crude compared to a large industrial system; but you get the idea.

A little more of a discussion on dies and steps  in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YLYqI_8dXM

A little more of a discussion in this one:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To speed up your current process, make the product in batches, not one at a time.

They heat, bulge, punch, shape and cool down one end at the time. Currently they are punching and shaping using different machines. These tool changes that make the production slow.   Do one full days production with tooling set up #1. If you heat, bulge, punch, shape both ends with the same tooling, then do a full days production run on the left end, and the following day a full days production run on the right end. This should speed things up considerably as you are only doing one process. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was I too harsh on Tim? I seem to have been on a roll.

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Glenn said:

To speed up your current process, make the product in batches, not one at a time.

They heat, bulge, punch, shape and cool down one end at the time. Currently they are punching and shaping using different machines. These tool changes that make the production slow.   Do one full days production with tooling set up #1. If you heat, bulge, punch, shape both ends with the same tooling, then do a full days production run on the left end, and the following day a full days production run on the right end. This should speed things up considerably as you are only doing one process. 

They are doing a batch production and they want less labour work with more efficient production. They are producing max of 1000 per batch and minimum of 200 per batch. They want to change this batch production as  much to flow production if possible. The whole process goes from  heating, forging, flash is removed and a hole is punched in the ends, bars are placed into furnace and then shaped to customer requirements, oil quenched, checked for quality, tempered and another quality control test,  coldwork to correct movement during heat treatment, shot-peened, painted, machined, bushed and packed. I'm focusing on the forging stage in this batch production. 

9 hours ago, Frosty said:

Tim: So far you've asked a very non specific question looking for a specific answer. That can't happen in any meaningful way. You are also avoiding telling us where you are., That's 2.

You keep repeating your question parsed slightly differently as if that makes a difference. That's 3

Right now you claim it takes 90 minutes to make one sway bar. Having read your posts to date I believe THAT is accurate.

You'd LIKE to reduce production time to 1 minute? Wouldn't anybody who builds parts as demanding as sway bars! #4

Look, we get what you're asking but there are a few problems giving you meaningful answers. Those are answers that have anything to do with reality or practicality. Something you can actually do.

The most advanced manufacturers on EARTH can't do what you want to, not without using metals so advanced the sway bars would cost more than the vehicle BEFORE it was made.

Yeah, you can do the hot forging on one machine. Learn what's actually involved in the process and take your pick, there are a number of possibilities. Unfortunately you don't know enough to ask questions that CAN be answered. You don't know enough to know how little you know. I think that's a summation so I won't mark it #5.

Adding up the obvious points I have to believe #1, In what ever country you live you do not have the technical base to manufacture high strength forgings competitively. #2, You personally don't have any real connection to whoever wants to try making a living making sway bars. It sounds more like a contest with a "grand Prize" awarded for whoever invents a needed thing. In this case a way to magically make sway bars in under 1 minute instead of 90 minutes. I know you said the "forging" but seem to think half an hour to cool properly isn't part of the forging process.

I'm not telling you to go away, I'm telling you what you ask can't be answered for the above reasons. First you won't reveal where you are so we MIGHT be able to point you in the right direction. Secondly You don't know enough to ask an answerable question nor enough to understand the answer if it dropped in your lap. Lastly you're asking for a virtual impossibility.

Like I say we'd like to help but we can't.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Sorry I'm new to this. Sorry if my questions are not right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may try your questions on a manufacturing forum that deals with forging operations. Not that there are lots of people on this site that could shed some light on your problems, but this is a blacksmithing site mainly dealing with individuals learning the blacksmithing trade.

Trying to cut the time process from 90 minutes to a 1 minute process??? I congratulate your enthusiasm!!!

- Say it takes 90 minutes to drive to work/school - How can one get that down to a 1 minute drive.................. pretty tough!!!!!

I'm not saying you can't shave a few minutes off the process - but I think a more reasonable goal would be to do just that, concentrate on a "few" minute time savings, as over the long run that will save a lot of money in itself. - Good Luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This sounds like a job for an Upset Forging Machine or "Upsetter". These come in sizes from 1/2" to 7". They are rated as to what size round bar they will put a rivet head on in one blow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't read all of the replies but some, so I will just reference one of the jobs I had...  Years ago.

We were making a Sway Bars, I think for KW Tractors, and we proceeded as follows:

1 1/2" bar stock, material type do not remember.

Three position Closed Dies.

1) An up setter section giving the bar a tapered down section with a bulb of steel on the end.

2) A rough shaper, this section flattened the steel some and impressed a dimple in the rounded bulb end.

3) A finish Shaper, this got the steel to something that looked like end of a sway bar, sort flattened, with a hole in the middle not a finished hole and it had flashing around the out side, which would give you a good idea of how filled out the piece really was.

Then you would go to a press, ours used a spinning flywheel for momentum and an electric released, in was the finished shape of the piece including the hole, wham ban there is was a sway bar end.

This was done on a 4000 lbs hammer and electric press, it had to go on to a very large up setter to bend the end, after reheating.

I know this doesn't answer your questions but may give you an idea, based on size, of what it took to forge the sway bars; not to mention the heat treating and finish work ( no sharp edges, clean hole) !

The same shop made the connecting rods for the Lindberg Plane and the one I loved was Valve Bodies made from Leaded Navel Brass for Nuclear Subs.

Getting off subject, sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the budget for this project? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you really want to drop cycle times, go with an induction forge/furnace.  

Tim, is this an actual production line and proposed changes and not just a school project?  If so please let us know what the final product is so I can avoid driving one.  Expecting those kinds of thru-put increases (and asking simplistic questions about same on a non-manufacturing forum) screams "short cut" to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On March 18, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Scrambler82 said:

I didn't read all of the replies but some, so I will just reference one of the jobs I had...  Years ago.

Mod comments have been edited.

I read to Thomas' UTube posting, got caught up in the vids and remembered a job I worked on years back and posted my recalled job.  If the person that posted the red remarks had taken a moment and rear the first sentence I said I read some of the postings but not all.

The problem is sometimes at my age if you don't do something you are thinking about you forget what it was, so I posted my thoughts and qualified them so if someone had already posted something along the lines they wouldn't think I was by-jacking there thought patterns.

Enough said, I guess I won't go on with this.

Again sorry Tim for putting this up but if I posted elsewhere it wouldn't have the impact.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scrambler, I have edited your posts to remove the added comments related to the quote below.

On March 18, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Scrambler82 said:

I didn't read all of the replies but some, so I will just reference one of the jobs I had...  Years ago.

Many of the replies in this thread are short, others go into detail. Thank you for your input to the discussion, based on the part of the 20 rep;its you read. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now