Gergely Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 For a while now I have tried to make my own by blacksmithing and metalwork. I can't say I've done it very dandy but indeed I've learned a lot, and slowly commmisions have started pouring in. I don't worry because I did know that it was going to be a slow process and I can see it changing right now. The reason I'm writing of is the frightening feeling I've felt since two days before, when I was asked to give a calculation plan for the almost complete ironwork of a small hotel. They gave me the design instructions, but I can offer them a plain/simple version and a fancier version. I couldn't get the actual calculations done yet but it seems it's gonna be one big chunk of bacon. The job consists of making 6m of staircase railings, and wrought iron framing for 10 beds, 16 nightstands and 8 tables. Also 8 big candle holders and one blackboard holder to make. Starting time will be in April (not totally sure yet) and possible deadline will be in 4 months. I haven't done any of those earlier. Although I have the necessary basic skills. It requires some but not major investments in the workshop. And mostly it requires way more discipline and perseverance in my work moral for achieving faster workspeed. The biggest problem is to understand: am I capable of doing such thing. - If they give the green light and I can do all the stuff well, it means I'm in the business on a whole new level. But if I'm failing that takes me down pretty ugly. Other problem is that back in a while I was offered a job of my old workplace. I said yes with one exception: I submit a tender for financing my blacksmithing/ironworking business - if it is successful and I get money to go on with my business then I won't go back to my old job. There is no word about the tender and the old/new job starts in April. If my tender looses I can't really go on with my business (unless I am doing this big comission) so I need the old/new job. One thing is sure: I have to think through and plan everything considering this commission. NOt only that can be the way to give a suitable price but also to think trough the technology of making these things step-by-step. Hopefully doing so will show the weak points of my skills and let me find the difficulties to solve. Thank you for reading this all. I really don't want anyone to solve my problems but if you have some comments to share please do so. It helped me already to write these things out of my mind and have some sort of path to start on. Bests: Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I don't have any specific advice, other than to offer the reassurance that you appear to be going about this in a careful, deliberate, and professional way, both for considering this hotel job in itself and for thinking about your career plans. That's a good thing. The only additional thing I would say is this: don't be afraid of failure. Without the risk of failure, there is no possibility for progress. As we say in my line of work, not asking is the same as No; asking creates the possibility of Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 To put this another way, 6m of staircase railings, 10 bed frames, 16 nightstands, 8 tables, 8 big candle holders, and 1 blackboard holder is 44 projects to be completed in 4 months. That is 5 days a week, 4 weeks per month, and 4 months which adds up to 80 working days. That is 1.8 or (rounding up) 2 projects to be completed EACH DAY. Can you turn out a bed frame, nightstand, or big candle holder, or 6m of railing in half a day (4 hours) ? Keep in mind that the first unit of each project will take more time to set up and complete. The time should be less after that as you can cut multiple pieces which will speed up assembly a bit. Then there is the prep time for the finish, and time needed for the paint to dry. Do not forget the time needed to meet with the hotel to update them on your progress, or any changes that might be made. You know your capabilities. You know your shop capabilities. Can you gear up and make the products in half a day (4 hours) each? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Can you start tomorrow making prototypes and sell them elsewhere? Figuring out the issues early will save a lot of time. Is there any work that can be done by an assistant---like finishing that can be done while you are forging on other items? Good Luck which ever way it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverNZ Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I know from personal experience that one of the most difficult things of working for yourself is making the break from a steady and secure job and becoming responsible for your own destiny and standing or falling own your own merits. All I can say is if you really want to do it go ahead as others have said you are not taking the decistion lightly , I always say to someone here to put aside about 25 to 30 percent of your gross income for the first year for tax as most businesses fail in the second year due to tax payments. So go for it if thats your passtion and dont wait until you are old and in a rest home wishing you had whats the wost that can happen. What Glen and Thomas said is very true as well be carfull of over comitment as well. Hope this helps Chears Beaver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 This is one of those make or break situations. Some jobs you are better off saying no to, and others are the ones that you need to take the risk and say yes. When I had my shop we were hungry for work and we ended up with a couple of jobs that cost us more to make than they were worth. Will you have any help? What happens if you cannot complete the job in time, or it is not up to their expectations? Contracts? Do you have a lawyer to look a contract over? Who is installing the railing? Permits? Do you have to meet safety specifications that the government requires? Insurance? Is this an all or nothing job? Can you only do certain items, and someone else do the others? That is a LOT of work, and a short timeframe to do it in, especially by yourself. There is going to be a lot of trial and error, material used, supplies, etc...can you afford to eat the cost if it does not work out? I am not trying to stop you from doing this, I'm just tossing some things out that I learned from owning my machine and fabrication shop years ago. A lot of people will be cheerleaders for you, but you also need to consider all of the possible pitfalls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Glenn analysis of the time factor shows that this is not a job you can possibly do by yourself unless you have at least one year of time. But most importantly, a railing or bed head or night stand can be something that takes you a month to complete or a week or even a day. It's all in the detail. 6m staircase railing ... straight or curved? Are the stairs already in place or do you have to build them too? A lot of questions come to mind. I have made more bedhead, lamps, tables and railing I care to remember but never on my own and always in a very large and well equipped workshop with very experienced blacksmith. This days i am struggling to make a very long railing for myself only because I am on my own, and moving 3 meter sections of complete railing to install them is a task in itself. I would say that, providing you have the skills to make this to the specifications required, and the room in your workshop to do it and store the finished products, You need a second experienced worker to work alongside and a labourer to help. The timeframe will have to be flexible and don't accept penalties for being late. The level of complexity of the job has to be comfortable ... that is you must have done this before many times over. If you do take the job, post some pictures of the drawings and the job when you start. Best of luck. PS You can always tell them you are on your own and can take the job but deliver in sections. The staircase is one job. The 10 beds another job etc. What is the competition like in your area? Can they go to someone else? And most important of all ... can you cost the job so that you have a good profit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Greetings Gergely, I will pass on my rules that have served me well in the past.. Never let one company or job consume more than 20 percent of your production shop time. If the project goes sour you can regroup and recover. You must always leave time to take in new business and take care of your exsisting customers. If you gear up your production with new equipment and help you have to take into consideration what will happen when the job is completed. Big is not always better. Just an old boys 2cents who has been ther before. I wish you well Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 True for an established workshop Jim, not for someone who will use this as a stepping stone to be independent. This situations are always a gamble and the best you can aim is to minimise risk. The big question is what is there for him. The job will end of course like any other project. Will this bring in more jobs? Very likely. A hotel is a bill board open day and night. You can even ask the customer as a condition that your name is displayed on a plaque somewhere in the lobby. Making a profit and learn new skills? Looks likely. Share some of the profits with hired help? A must. Only Gergely can tell if he is up to the task. Dedicating 4 or 6 month to one customer when you are just starting for your work to be on display for a long time, seems like a big opportunity to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Ah, the shiny object scenario. The job looks so good that some of the harsh realities start to be mentally diminished in it's brilliance. BTDT and there is always a cost, even when things eventually work. The hours don't work out in calculation. Glenn left off the ton of hours involved with material handling, fabricating jigs and fixtures for repeatability, That day you wrench your back and get slowed down for the next 7, the machine/tool that breaks down on you and costs you a day, and about a thousand other things which add up to a more realistic schedule. I almost always calculate hours and multiply that by 3 to discover a more realistic timeframe. In practice, all the time-eaters tend to make that 3 times rule come out fairly close on easy jobs and a little low on the complicated ones. But all is not lost--now you know so you have the chance to be PROACTIVE in many areas. The first one is to hammer the customer on time frame. If they want hand-wrought results, they need to be realistic about a hand-wrought timeframe. If they simply won't budge, they just want the goods and don't really care--that kind of job is better for a general fabrication shop anyway. You can also revise plans to be more oriented to assembly-line production. Do you really need 8 different sizes of scrolls or is 4 actually enough? 40 leaf patterns or just 3? Hard twists or easy? Half the battle is not sabotaging yourself before the work starts by over-complicating the designs. Just because you can get fancy doesn't mean you should (with this timeframe) Finally, you can probably do jigs and fixtures prior to even getting the job if you plan some generic styles for the future. That way you'll be able to use them for years on many jobs rather than quickies for a one-off job like this. Having that out of the way can save a week on the production schedule and have value beyond this single job. Even at that this sounds like a job which you'll invent a whole new set of swear words while doing. Be sure you have enough money in the job to account for what I call the "Aggravation factor"--the cost to your sanity in order to meet heavy demands. Most of all, don't dive in so deep it teaches you to hate smithing: Smithing shouldn't be a chore of duty. If you wanted a job like that, you might as well work for some nameless corporate overlord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 I can't find words to describe how thankful I am for these great inputs from all of you! I did hope for some answers but this flood of very useful thoughts... I can't really say anything else but: THANK YOU so much! I try to do the main thinking through and basic math during the weekend. I keep you posted how it goes, if you don't mind. For now I must head back to bed because I'm only sleepwalking right now Bests: Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Boy, isn't this one BIG fish to swim into your pond Gergely? How much experience do you have doing production work? How is your shop equipped? Depending on the design this might be a pretty straight forward one person job, not likely but possible. I think you have a pretty good chance of pulling this scale project off even if it's not this particular one. A minor point, Glenn has the numbers backwards, it's NOT 1.8 pieces per day, it's 1.8 days per piece. It may not seem like much but it's a factor of four and a big deal. Screw up production time estimates on a bid by a factor of four and you've either lost the bid with long echoing laughter OR bankrupted your company if accepted. Regardless 1.8 days per piece is still a hectic schedule you'll need to have well organized and supplied. Logistics is my second most limiting factor, handling capacity being #1. I approach this kind of thing by breaking it down into processes. #1 ordering and delivery of materials, this is in general, I'm not even shopping prices yet. Eyeballing the plans I see I'll need ?m. of 12mm. x 5cm half round cap rail for the railing and ?m of 12mm. x 5mm flat bar for the bottom rail. I won't imagine a materials list just give an example. Now I know how much steel the project will require I add a % for drops, wastage and mistakes. It always seems like it's WAY too much but be generous. Figure handling next. How are you going to manipulate the stock and assemblies? Seriously, 6m x 1.5m railing is big, heavy and surprisingly fragile until you get it installed. During construction you have to have what I call "swing room". If your shop isn't set up so you can feed lengths of raw stock in one end, cut it, shape it, assemble it then load it on the delivery truck and do it all in a line you MUST have room to turn it around. Also, some pieces can be worked on simultaneously and speed things but some not. For instance if 60% of the stock requires twisting set up a twisting station and twist as much at the same time as possible. Same for tenons, punching, welding, etc. It gets complicated and I've run on long enough. We have some guys here who are professionals at analyzing jobs in all their complexities I'd be PMing them right darned NOW. Even if they won't help directly I'll bet they're more than happy to share their approach to calculating a job of work. I know how I'd do it but I'm 40 years out of practice and Dad's not around to ask. Sounds like a great opportunity if you can pull it off, unless I'm mistaken this sounds a lot like how Darryl Nelson really made his name. He did the iron work for a large high end mountain lodge and he's been in high demand ever since. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I am with Frosty, only I wouldn't wish this on a single person unless he is done it before 20 times over and is real fit. Don't forget to factor in all the jigs you will need if you want your scrolls to look the same. I would like to see what you have in mind ... or rather what the customer wants in terms of design. Hungary ... just noticed ... ... you guys know how to swing a hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 As someone who teaches welding fabrication classes, I make my students do a simple write-up and simple concept sketch for each project. Neither should take more than an hour of your time. Both pages must be signed by the fabricators (solo student or all group members) and the client, plus the Instructor. Many projects are aborted or delayed at this point, because the client wants something wildly different than the student can reasonably provide in a timely manner for a reasonable budget. You want to get a small down payment at this point to cover your serious design phase. If they balk, you walk. Then, and only then, do they start pricing materials, drafting the blueprints, preparing cut lists, time estimates, etc. to arrive at a project cost. Now, you are ready to bring small samples or scale models to the client, along with the blueprints and a binding contract for signatures. Never leave a full copy of the project file with a client, and always mark all pages with some sort of intellectual property marking: watermark, seal, stamp, etc. Each student keeps a record of how much time goes into each phase, and it is always a revelation at the end how much time even a simple project eats up. If you are not currently making time cards for each project, start today. It is the only way to know your actual cost of production. If you decide to take this job, you need a firm agreement on what each item will look like when finished before you can bid it well. Having an attorney look over your contracts for an all-or-nothing job like this is a cost you should not avoid. Do you have to sign the contract now? Who drew it up? If I am reading your message correctly, the job will not start before April, and you will then have 4 months to fulfill the contract? If so, you need to start making a table, nightstand, or bed frame a week to get your production rate figured out. The design and fabrication details that you figure out now will stay with you forever, whether or not you catch this fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 Thank you again, Guys! Your help is very very much appriciated! John, your suggestion about the one hour sketches has come right in time. I've successfully buried myself in detailed drawing of the railing while I only wanted to know the number of welding points. And of course without the exact dimensions it's not so fun to draw in scale. So let's jump forward. As much as I can see it now I want to make the 6 m long railing from 4 pieces of 1,5 m sections. Its design goes something like this in the picture: Although this is a fence and no staircase railing, but the main concept is the same. I have to solve the questions -how to break it into four sections? and -which is better for the arch joining: punching holes like in the picture or take the arch a bit out of plane without joining them together? I made a rough but detailed price list for the materials of the railing. It shows that my original guesstimate price is clearly low. The material costs are above the half of the total, and even if there is not a single hammer blow on the whole work it is not gonna be decent price at the end. It looks like there will be at least 240 weld in the whole structure. I have to think about this more... Thank you all for your valuable contributions! Bests: Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 3rd option would be half lapped which can be simple and fast and welded if more strength is needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 5 hours ago, Gergely said: Although this is a fence and no staircase railing, but the main concept is the same. I have to solve the questions -how to break it into four sections? and -which is better for the arch joining: punching holes like in the picture or take the arch a bit out of plane without joining them together? Do you want to have 4 sections with intermediate post? or one continuous railing? Much easier to break in sections with posts in between. As for the arch, let them bypass each other. Much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 6 hours ago, Marc1 said: Much easier to break in sections with posts in between. I'm leaning that way. Mainly because I can't find out anything simple and sturdy for the continous version. I have now an actual question: What do you think about using 50x50x5 mm angle iron for the frame of a 200x220 size double bed? I thought it will be strong enough and also good to accomodate the wooden crossboards they want. Above the angle iron frame they require flat bar running along all four sides stabilizing the matress and to give more strength to the whole thing. Thank you continuously! Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 50x50x5 angle to build the frame for a king size mattress? It all depends on how you make this frame. A king size bed is very wide and wooden slats can not span that much. You need a third rail in the center and I wouldn't use just one angle but two separated by 150mm or so and interconnected with short diagonals like an engineered beam. Consider that the load can be over 200k and it most definitely will not be a static load! A single 50x50x5 angle can buckle if on it's own. Go to a bed supplier and see what they use in commercial steel bedframe. Are you making the bed head with this? legs? it all plays a role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 In America, at least, commercial bed frames are not mild steel, but something close to 1075 high carbon steel, hard to drill and prone to cracking when welded. 50x50x5 translates to 2"x2"x3/16" in my world. If using mild structural steel, you are going to need to use bigger stock to get the equivalent stiffness and strength rating, say 75x75. It may be more practical to commercially outsource the hidden parts that support the mattress, and concentrate your efforts on the visible parts, the headboards and foot boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 What he said! They make side rails that are terminated such that they bolt onto the headboard and footboard. I would design to use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 Gentlemen! That is a truly valid suggestion. Thank you! Time as the main problem would be spared by using ready elements, also no need to worry about the correct how to on the frame. Unfortunately such thing as metal bed frames only, haven't crossed my path yet. I have to look for it specifically, maybe there is some luck waiting. Anyway I will ask my local metalworker friends what they know about the local traditions of this making. I'd really rather not invent the wheel again this time By the way once again my guesstimate went clearly under the realistic asking price. If nothing else will come out of this project I've still learned to not trust my instincts on the pricing. Bests: Gergely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Learn to trust your instincts, then multiple by 3 or more to get pricing. (grin) You can always return any overcharge, but it is tough to say you under estimated and need more money. You may want to make a small bed head board and foot board as a demo piece. It can be a great learning experience, and a great way to figure out the hours and materials involved. Make it to accept standard bed rails but cut the rails short to make the distance between the head board and foot board very short, a matter of inches. You can always cut another set of bed rails to make finished bed the size for a dog. DO NOT show any item as a demo piece that you do not want to build. People will always choose that one item you hate to make, and want two of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Dear Glenn, There was more than one blacksmithing gem in the above comment G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POZ Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I don't have much to add to this as I don't have nearly the experience that most of the other posters have. If you can price this job so that you can not loose, and hear back on your quote before you have to tell the company that you are planning on going back to that you have changed your plans you should be alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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