So would Fold Forge Welding be fine for a start?

[jacbow2]

So I've never forge welded before but want to start soon, would a fold weld be good or should I find something easier?   

(Also most of my welds would be for Damascus blades) 

 

 

(By fold forge welding I mean when you fold the steel on top of each other creating layers for those who didn't know.)

[ThomasPowers]

start by doing welds on mild steel.  Fold over an end and weld it back to itself for things like fireplace pokers, rams and cow heads, etc.  When you are getting good results with that move up to doing baskets.  Now if your interests were only in blades I am sure you would have told us that right?

[jacbow2]

Thanks Thomas I didn't think of that. And most would be knives but I'd probably do mild stuff too 

[ThomasPowers]

Start with mild and move up when you get good.  Remember pattern welded stuff does not have to be High C or just for blades; I've seen some great patterns done with wrought iron and nickel.  Some pattern welded bottle openers can pay for your learning!

[SReynolds]

That is known as faggot welds. Not fold forge welding.  no such thing. 

[Frank Turley]

My understanding of a faggot weld is two or more lengths of iron or steel stacked together and fire welded into a solid; no scarfs used. In smithing, two pieces can be considered a faggot, the dictionary derivation meaning a bundle.      As Thomas mentioned, folding an end onto itself is a solution for Jacbow2, and our old farrier instructor called such a thing a layback.

[SReynolds]

In this book it is clearly stated that you can attempt the faggot weld w/o scarfing but it will result in cold shut. 

I see you tube videos of large knife makers ( no, not a hobbyists with drum forge outside and rr spikes) who layer iron and steel and weld with hyd press. They don't seem to scarf. Thus jack Andrews book new edge of anvil will point out they build swards incorrectly as their welds are bad.

[Steve Sells]

I do not agree  I stack a few times for my swords and no bad welds when I have done it, Either you or Mr Andrews is mistaken. I missed seeing any of  Mr Andrews swords,  can you post photos ?

[SReynolds]

I dont know if he makes swards. Probably just writes books.

But his isn't the only book that will Inform you, you have to scarf. If you don't,  it is reported the two sections are apt to slide. And cold shuts. 

I don't write books. I just read them and experiment on my own. Everyone would seem to have their own opinion. 

 

[Michael Cochran]

I've read that you were supposed to round the flat pieces before stacking and welding together as well. I have also seen several people who cut it off the bar and grind just enough to knock off the mill scale (if necessary) then they stack and weld with no scarfing. I too just stack and weld, no scarfing.

[jacbow2]

Michael, that's what I saw when they stack it and weld, then they will draw it out cut it down the middle until it's almost cut all the way through then fold on top of itself and weld it back and repeat.. 

[Smoggy]

Glad someone brought this up, From previous fabrication work, ie arc welding, I have always known this to be a "lap" weld, be it two pieces welded together ot one piece folded back on itself. The term "faggot" I know from copising and refers to a faggot of sticks (a different size to a "bundle" but essentually the same thing). From forgework, I understand that blummery forged bar was stacked, "faggoted" and forge welded to produce an iron billet of sufficient size to produce the final product. It is my understanding that Japanese blade smiths stack selected tamahagane in a faggot to produce a billet in this way.

Although I have now become used to refering to a forged lap joint as faggot welded, or a faggot weld. I do not refer to it as a faggot.

As for scalfing, I'm under the impression one would only scarf a lap joint when joining two pieces together to extend the length of the bar etc and require a constand dimention. I believe there is ample evidence to suggest a scarf is not required otherwise and can be successfully completed without incuring cold shunts.

 

[SReynolds]

That is the point I brought up.  The Andrews books says otherwise. You must scarf the joint otherwise cold shuts are formed. I have performed the task each way and both can form cold shuts. 

[Smoggy]

1 hour ago, Smoggy said:

(a different size to a "bundle" but essentually the same thing)

Should have read: (a different size to a bundle than a "pimp" but essentually the same thing)

 

[ThomasPowers]

Shall we also throw in the term "bushelling" AKA "Busheling" and refers both to a type of scrap and the welded up billet made from it.

Much of the tamahagane processing I have seen could be considered busheling over fagot welds.

[John B]

3 hours ago, SReynolds said:

That is the point I brought up.  The Andrews books says otherwise. You must scarf the joint otherwise cold shuts are formed. I have performed the task each way and both can form cold shuts. 

The book is wrong, the technique used is what determines what you term cold shuts occuring or not. 

If you are going to perform the foldback/faggot/lapweld or whatever you want to call it, then cut halfway or more on your hardie and then fold it back onto itself, this will reduce the eye shaped gap you see in the picture, then weld back from the end and it will consolidate from the welded end end towards the "handle" end

If you are going to scarf something you are usually putting metal back into where you are about to weld so as to maintain section as you weld, and then forming a mating area with your other piece.

Why would you scarf on an outside edge as in the picture?

 

[Steve Sells]

4 hours ago, SReynolds said:

That is the point I brought up.  The Andrews books says otherwise. You must scarf the joint otherwise cold shuts are formed. I have performed the task each way and both can form cold shuts. 

How can you knowingly repeat false information? that statement is not any point, it is just wrong.   In fact, you have just started it is false and you can do it but then you want to stste here that it can not be done and blame Andrews?  As for him writing books, anyone can do it, I wrote a bit, what does that prove?   An author needs to verify statements, and when proven wrong admit it, rather than continue spreading rumors and nonsense to others.

[SReynolds]

I don't know. I don't write books. This is his second book so he must know how to do it.

He clearly states if you don't scarf a foggot weld, the weld is weak.

I do however recommend performing this weld as a beginner .........with thin flat stock. 1/8". I dont scarf it. As is too thin.

I will  experiment  cutting part way through and then folding it with my (thicker)  horse shoe stock.

[John B]

You say   "I don't know, I don't write books, this is his second book so he must know how to do it" 

He may know how to write books, and how to market them, so you assume he knows how to do it.

Many years ago I obtained his "Edge of the anvil a resource book for the blacksmith" and by and large for beginners thats fine and I found it interesting, mainly for the portfolio of Samuel Yellins work, some of the other contents I found personally found questionable

As for his hands on smithing , I do not know his experience or capabilities and have no wish to cast aspersions but his book(s) techniques are only his (and his advisors) guide lines.

When you start out you tend to soak up any information from any source you can, and trust that source to be reliable and experienced mainly due to your own lack of knowledge. Do not be afraid to question its provider, many are short on practical experience and can talk the talk but do not understand what they are saying, or doing. You will be able to judge them on their response.

There is no right, proper or wrong way when you blacksmith, just do it safely. 

He may clearly state "If don't scarf a faggot weld, the weld is weak" and that is in itself unqualified, What is the purpose of the weld? In this case adding volume to a bar, it is either a good weld or a bad weld, and so weak is an inappropriate term. If its going to fail under load, then it is weak, but in this case you are consolidating metal onto itself so it becomes one. 

He also always uses flux, again nonsense,  you do not need flux to forge weld mild steel, it may help, but it is not essential. Fluxes have been used from the Bronze age to help join metals, it does not mean you always have to use them, they are part of blacksmithing mythology along with clean fires and no copper contaminents or the weld won't stick.

You then go on to recommend this weld for a beginner, with thin flat stock, but don't scarf it as it's too thin.   Thin is not good to practice to start trying to forge weld on, 

I think it may help here to define what a scarf is in blacksmithing welding terms, Andrews mentions scarfed collars, these are cut on an angle and become in his terms overlap collars, It may be an American thing, but my understanding of a scarf is your piece of metal to be welded is jumped up or upset to give excess material so that when two or more pieces are welded together the pieces consolidate and the original bar size or intended section at the joint is maintained, The scarfs are made to rest on each other in a number of different ways, to help locate them and stop them slipping during the initial tacking of the weld.

Good luck with your trying horse shoe stock, and show us the results

Here are some pictures to illustrate scarfs and how they fit, these were done by Richard Bent

 

Apologies for the picture quality, they were resurrected from very old archives

 

 

[SReynolds]

1/8" flat is what I started with. It welds easily. Thus I employ this inthe welding class I teach. They do it when they never have forge welded prior to this. So it must be a good idea as they learn how to forge weld for first time. Then I have them move onto lap welds with two individual lengths of 1/8" thick flat stock. That too is an easy weld.

But my point is the source of information . An individual must get it somewhere.  What would be a reputable source? If not books then youtube? Or this site? 

That alone is  a challenge for a beginner. I worked under a talented smith (per the work he does) but insists that water quench cools slowest and heavy oil the quickest.

I have met a smith who informed me you harden low carbon steel at black heat and quench in engine oil. So yeah. I'm trying to point out there is alot of bad information.  

 

[Alan Evans]

23 hours ago, jacbow2 said:

So I've never forge welded before but want to start soon, would a fold weld be good or should I find something easier?   

(Also most of my welds would be for Damascus blades) 

 

 

(By fold forge welding I mean when you fold the steel on top of each other creating layers for those who didn't know.)

As a starter weld a simple fold on the end of a bar is probably the quickest to prepare and therefore you get to do more of them and get more practice at gauging the heat and pressure required. I would be inclined to use a bit of 10 or 12mm (3/8" or 1/2") square for this. It gives you a bit of tolerance or leeway with the heat. I have always found thin metal more difficult to fire weld and would think 1/8" was definitely not a good size to learn with. But SReynolds' students evidently manage.

Another easy weld is the scarf joint on a chain link. Easy for the beginner because like the fold over they do not have the added complication of bringing the two elements together in a hurry. They are self aligning. Also making a couple of links and then joining them together with a third is great psychological boost with a piece graphically displaying the properties of the material. 6 or 10mm (1/4" or 3/8" ) round or square are easy sizes for a beginner to manipulate and have a bit of meat which can tolerate a bit of overheating.

Alan

[John B]

6 hours ago, SReynolds said:

But my point is the source of information . An individual must get it somewhere.  What would be a reputable source? If not books then youtube? Or this site? 

That alone is  a challenge for a beginner. I worked under a talented smith (per the work he does) but insists that water quench cools slowest and heavy oil the quickest.

I have met a smith who informed me you harden low carbon steel at black heat and quench in engine oil. So yeah. I'm trying to point out there is alot of bad information.  

 

I am glad we finally got to the point you intended, that was not clear in your previous posts, 

As I mentioned previously there is no right or wrong way,  and practitioners have many theories as to what works for them and usually why, so ask them and form your own opinion on the rationality of the response and act on that. The proof of the information is if it is succesful for you when you try.

Reputable sources ?  Hands on with an experienced 'smith in the field you wish to study is my first choice, some books are better than others, my recommendation is the CoSIRA books now known as Rural Craft Publications, frequently mentioned on this site and although out of print, they can be downloaded for free from  http://www.hlcollege.ac.uk/Downloads/craftpublications.html  especially the  Wrought Ironwork: A Manual of Instruction for Craftsmen  and  The Blacksmith's Craft   

You tube, some good, some bad, pot luck really most miss out useful if not vital points, some are downright dangerous, some well intentioned, others just an ego trip, with advise and experience you will come to recognise which are useful for you.

This site is the best I have encountered on the internet for constructive (sometimes controversial) advise, and usually as in this post, people will step in to try to help and inform.

'Smithing is a hands on lifetime learning experience,  Aristotle  has been quoted as saying  "For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them.” a perfect mantra for the craft. Simply put , we learn by our mistakes, on this sit you get the benefit from also learning from others mistakes.

Whichever way you choose to work, always remeber there is no  proper way 

Have fun and enjoy, it's a great hobby, but a heck of a hard way to make a living.!

 

[Smoggy]

16 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Shall we also throw in the term "bushelling" AKA "Busheling" and refers both to a type of scrap and the welded up billet made from it.

Maybe we should Thomas, I am familiar with a bushel from measurement systems, and with the term used for a bundle of scrap metals but I've no reference to a billet refered to as a bushel. A new one to me. (and I no sooner do i post than I eventually manage to find a reference )

[Alan Evans]

4 hours ago, John B said:

I am glad we finally got to the point you intended, that was not clear in your previous posts, 

As I mentioned previously there is no right or wrong way,  and practitioners have many theories as to what works for them and usually why, so ask them and form your own opinion on the rationality of the response and act on that. The proof of the information is if it is succesful for you when you try.

Reputable sources ?  Hands on with an experienced 'smith in the field you wish to study is my first choice, some books are better than others, my recommendation is the CoSIRA books now known as Rural Craft Publications, frequently mentioned on this site and although out of print, they can be downloaded for free from  http://www.hlcollege.ac.uk/Downloads/craftpublications.html  especially the  Wrought Ironwork: A Manual of Instruction for Craftsmen  and  The Blacksmith's Craft   

You tube, some good, some bad, pot luck really most miss out useful if not vital points, some are downright dangerous, some well intentioned, others just an ego trip, with advise and experience you will come to recognise which are useful for you.

This site is the best I have encountered on the internet for constructive (sometimes controversial) advise, and usually as in this post, people will step in to try to help and inform.

'Smithing is a hands on lifetime learning experience,  Aristotle  has been quoted as saying  "For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them.” a perfect mantra for the craft. Simply put , we learn by our mistakes, on this sit you get the benefit from also learning from others mistakes.

Whichever way you choose to work, always remeber there is no  proper way 

Have fun and enjoy, it's a great hobby, but a heck of a hard way to make a living.!

 

Great post John, I thoroughly agree. 

Working with or even just watching an experienced smith demonstrating and describing what he is doing and being able to see the end result is best.

The CoSIRA books (formerly known as RIB, Rural Industry Bureau!) books were great. Books describing the work of time served and experienced smiths and trainers in the traditional best-practice techniques they were doing.

The ideal would be a book by an amateur writer...written by a professional blacksmith rather than the other way around. I met Jack Andrews on a number of occasions, good bloke, I have a signed copy of his book somewhere. It is a well written and illustrated book. But he but would fall into the category of amateur blacksmith writing for amateur blacksmiths despite his association with the Yellin shop. I think The Edge of the Anvil was largely a collection of the knowledge available amongst the largely self-taught members of the fledgling ABANA.

It is far better than the awful Weygers book, even so.

But even when you have excellent books written by a professional smith and educator like Peter Parkinson there can still be slip ups and typos. He described the geometry of my punch and drift system incorrectly in the first edition of his book "Forged Architectural Metalwork" for instance. "The Artist Blacksmith" is his beginners / technical book which I can also thoroughly recommend.

YouTube has so many vanity projects by inexperienced people that it takes for ever to find useful information. If you can find film of professional established smiths like Toby Hickman for instance you will be reliably and well informed.

Alan

[Dustin Quade]

6 hours ago, John B said:

I am glad we finally got to the point you intended, that was not clear in your previous posts, 

As I mentioned previously there is no right or wrong way,  and practitioners have many theories as to what works for them and usually why, so ask them and form your own opinion on the rationality of the response and act on that. The proof of the information is if it is succesful for you when you try.

Reputable sources ?  Hands on with an experienced 'smith in the field you wish to study is my first choice, some books are better than others, my recommendation is the CoSIRA books now known as Rural Craft Publications, frequently mentioned on this site and although out of print, they can be downloaded for free from  http://www.hlcollege.ac.uk/Downloads/craftpublications.html  especially the  Wrought Ironwork: A Manual of Instruction for Craftsmen  and  The Blacksmith's Craft   

You tube, some good, some bad, pot luck really most miss out useful if not vital points, some are downright dangerous, some well intentioned, others just an ego trip, with advise and experience you will come to recognise which are useful for you.

This site is the best I have encountered on the internet for constructive (sometimes controversial) advise, and usually as in this post, people will step in to try to help and inform.

'Smithing is a hands on lifetime learning experience,  Aristotle  has been quoted as saying  "For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them.” a perfect mantra for the craft. Simply put , we learn by our mistakes, on this sit you get the benefit from also learning from others mistakes.

Whichever way you choose to work, always remeber there is no  proper way 

Have fun and enjoy, it's a great hobby, but a heck of a hard way to make a living.!

 

Super glad you posted the link for the free book downloads. I have some new lunch time reading material!