So would Fold Forge Welding be fine for a start?

[Alan Evans]

One of the other blacksmithing books that Hereford college has available for download is the Lillico book...that is the bible for power hammer work...well it was for me.

All of the old RIB publications were good, not just the blacksmithing ones. A grand resource.

Alan

[Frosty]

That was really well said John, thank you. You saved me from talking about hammer patterns to set a fold over without creating a cold shut. Well, I've said it enough times I'm just not doing it again. 

--------------------------------------

Alan: What do you find "awful" about "Alexander Weygers' " book? You are aware it isn't about teaching blacksmithing right? It's about making a field expedient blacksmith shop and a variety of methods for making specialty tools from found materials.

"The complete Modern Blacksmith" is high on my recommended reading list but NOT for learning blacksmithing. I recommend it as a compendium of ways to make a high functioning blacksmith kit from whatever is at hand. Where I and most of the people I teach live blacksmithing tools are rare and we have to make do. The Weygers book is a detailed how to for the make do guys.

Of course my opinion is probably prejudiced by my spending so many years blacksmithing at a camp fire with whatever I found on site. The only tools I brought with was a hammer and chisel, it was years before I put a RR rail anvil together and boy what an improvement that was.

I'm not taking exception I'm just curious about what you find Awful about the book.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Alan Evans]

Frosty:

I guess it is all relative...I was trying to point to a progression of "good", "okay", and "awful" in the books I know. The Weygers book is my least favourite.

I did learn stuff from the Weygers book, it is not totally without merit...but I also remember some awful suggestions in it which made me distrust his advice. It is one of the first blacksmithing books I acquired back in the seventies after the RIB books and it didn't really match up to them. 

I just had a look for it and the Jack Andrews book in order to refresh my memory of them, but couldn't find them so I guess they are out on non-return loan  

Alan

[ThomasPowers]

What I like about Weygers' books was the mindset, the scrounge and DIY; if I had a choice of taking the COSIRA (sorry it's how I know them and is written in the Hardbacks I own...) books or Weygers knowing that I would be shipwrecked; I would go with Weygers.  If I was setting up a commercial smithing business I would go with the COSIRA books.   I often suggest Weygers to counteract people telling new hobby smiths that they should expect to spend thousands of dollars to get into blacksmithing.  HOWEVER I personally consider much of "The Making of Tools" as rather wasted space in a society where pliers and hammers can be found so abundantly and cheaply. I would rather have information on making things *from* them.

[Alan Evans]

My grandfather, and later for a short while my father were both organisers for the forerunner of COSIRA the RIB Rural Industries Bureau in the early fifties when the books were done...so I was brought up to be a bit snooty about the Johnny-come-lately COSIRA that put its name to the RIB products!

I do take both of your points about the different nature of the Weygers book...I just can't get the image of sharpening a gouge on a rubber wheel out of my mind even after 40 odd years. And it is true, I was earning my living as a blacksmith and so coming at it from a relatively main stream/professional point of view.

Alan

[Judson Yaggy]

S Renolds, look at the publication date of Mr. Andrews book.  Human knowledge is not a fixed thing, it evolves over time.  Keep in mind that the "early" contemporary American blacksmiths and authors thought that they were each all alone in the world.  That book was published before the internet; most smiths at the time didn't even have another smith to talk to let alone a knowledgeable editor or an internet forum of enthusiasts and experts to bounce ideas off of.  

As a beginner back then you had a book or two, and if you were lucky you had found ABANA and had an occasional Anvils Ring or later Hammer's Blow, all written (in ink on paper) by other enthusiasts or the occasional expert who had also been working in isolation, sometimes for decades.  Understandably this allowed errors in both technique and terminology to creep in.  Be glad that there was a core of smiths that kept at it, read the scanty literature (wish I had known more about the COSIRA stuff back then!) experimented, and reported successes and failures alike to friends, local groups, and ABANA.  If there is a name or a technique in an old book you don't like, ignore and move on, it may well be obsolete, at odds with your personal style, or flat out wrong.  

The 19th century compilation of blacksmithing journals into the book "Practical Blacksmithing" by Richardson is amusing because of the bandwidth taken up with bickering over minutia of technique and terminology.  Some things never change. (grin)

[ThomasPowers]

The journals were the internet of the day; only with month long or greater turn around time on discussions.  I read PB as a period piece---except for when I doing a replica of something of that time...then it's sold gold!  Of course I read and reread Moxon too for an earlier take on the craft---I have a facsimile edition with the f's instead of s's (so facfimile)  you get ufed to it pretty quickly. at leaft I do.

[Alan Evans]

When I was looking for my Weygers and Andrews books, I did find a few volumes of Practical Blacksmithing that I had picked up in Hay on Wye a few decades ago. Good fun read...and as you say, solid gold, plus bickering!

Alan

[gote]

20 hours ago, John B said:

 

"they are part of blacksmithing mythology along with clean fires and no copper contaminents or the weld won't stick. "

I am glad you mention "clean fire" as mythology. I have always wondered about that. None of my two masters (One German one Swedish) used the term. Obviously you cannot weld if it is not hot enough and since clinker does not create heat, one should obviously not have a lot of clinker. I mean either you have a fire that is hot enough or you have not. It is not a case of purity but of temperature. A hot fire saves time in heating so it makes sense to avoid too much clinker at all times.     

 

 

[David Einhorn]

Blacksmithing has come a long way since its resurgence in the 1970s.  Back then if a smith could forge weld two pieces of mild steel together, he/she was held in an overwhelming feeling of reverence/admiration.  And even in the early 1990s, I was in a course on forge-welding  that, looking back, the instructor provided inaccurate information.  By the end of the 1990s, Bill Moran who led the way for pattern-welding resulted in a surge in the number of people doing pattern-welding.  Perhaps the increased number of people doing and experimenting had a hand in the increased/better understanding and knowledge of forge/pattern welding, and also possibly thus resulting in better informed authors.   

Politeness on the forum is a good thing.  Too often I have observed experienced and highly skilled smiths become reluctant to share information due to rudeness and/or verbal attacks.  Steve S is a nice person and knowledgeable about blade smithing.  I look forward to his sharing his knowledge.    

[Frosty]

to paraphrase "Practical Blacksmithing" "If once you try my method you'll find it the superior. "Practical Blacksmithing" is one of many books that were stolen from me in the mid '90s so I'll think about someone else.

It's just perspective Alan, every once in a great while I'll see a metal spinning video, even have a "how to" DVD and can't help thinking, 'Dad probably could've turned you into a good spinner once he untaught you a bunch.'  Were I trying to teach myself metal spinning I'm sure the DVD would give me a start, just like Weyger's book helps get beginners away from the mind set that an anvil looks a certain way and you just HAVE to have the right tools.

I can't teach someone to be a blacksmith but I can show them what I know and tricks for boot strapping themselves. There wasn't anyone around to show me anything, I just started getting steel as hot as I could and trying to beat it into things. Started when I was around 10 give or take so of course I was "making" knives. Dad actively discouraged me from blacksmithing told me to learn a paying trade. I was in my 40s before I finally convinced him it was a hobby, then he started bragging about his son the blacksmith, go figure.

The only "blacksmiths" I knew of growing up were farriers but they weren't REALLY blacksmiths you know just close. It was the mid '80s when I found "The Art Of Blacksmithing" on a clearance table and just about had a happy dance fest right there in the book store. That was the first blacksmithing how to book I'd ever seen and libraries didn't carry any, weren't even their catalogues. I didn't even hear the name ABANA for years after I started finding books. There was a dead address for ABANA in "Metal Techniques for the Craftsman" by Oppi Untract, the Dixon tool company contact info was dead too.

When you're out there trying to teach yourself strictly by trial and error ANY advice is good advice, there was no such thing as a bad blacksmithing book even if looking back it was more a "how NOT to" book.

I bought myself a modern computer, a 386-33 in fact, pure lightning compared to my Commodore64 a modem and went online less than a week after the internet went public. In a week I'd butted in on a conversation between Chris Ray and someone, Nol Putnam maybe and got pointed to ABANA's Theforge.list and the Artmetal.list. It was heaven there WERE blacksmiths out there and they WANTED to talk about blacksmithing.

Yeah, there were a lot of crummy things getting spread around 40+ years ago but there weren't many folk in this country could share better.

Makes me feel good to pass what I've learned along.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Alan Evans]

It is interesting that even a century ago the Practical Blacksmith contributors were more keen to demonstrate and share a "better way" than they were on keeping trade secrets.

Over here other disciplines tried to emulate the ABANA / BABA model in the 80s and 90s but just could not get over their rivalries enough to share and make it work. Ceramics and glass spring to mind.

I always loved the idea that you could each go to a gathering with your one new idea/process share it and come back with twenty more.

Alan

[SReynolds]

You guys.......now I feel less accomplished.  More than one popular "how to" book clearly stated you cannot weld with a dirty fire. "All traces of clinker must be removed or a new fire constructed" . One of them pointing out "it is best to accomplish all your welding at the start of the day to assure clean fire and successful welds.

Apparently the clinker give off impurities preventing a weld so says another book or two.

And all this time I have been welding at days end and proving these published experts wrong.......and NOW you inform me it's only by the heat of the FIRE !?

I thought I was some super smith or something.  I even went so far ad to scrap my leather apron and wear a cape. That is untill it caught fire a number of months back. LOL

Spoilers.

 

 

[Steve Sells]

12 hours ago, SReynolds said:

You guys.......now I feel less accomplished. 

 

nonsense as you pointed out already you ARE doing it. in spite of another telling you it cant be done that way. That was the point I am making. You listed to others and learned, to see for yourself if they are true or false then proceeded.  Nothing personal against Mr Andrews, I also suggest starting out to use scarfs and always flux. Do I always use them now for myself ? no.  but i do try to point new people to the easier way to get started, let them make it complex later.   don’t perpetuate myth you have proven to be false,  such as this to scarf or not to scarf, you know either way does work now.

[ThomasPowers]

By now you already know what I'm going to say so run get a coke while I start off "Historically" there wasn't a lot of info out there save what one smith would teach their apprentices/journeymen  (and why it was important for a journeyman to journey!).  In general  real wrought iron would weld fairly easily as you did it at temperatures considerably above the melting point of scale.  However when things stared to get big and tricky and critical there was still a lot of issues with under strength welds, (as anvil delamination attests to).  Finally it got important enough that investigations were done, (and I think that Anchor chain was one of the big drivers in this IIRC).  Scarfing to drive out and scale or other crud was identified as being the most important factor to avoid under strength welds as currently practiced.

Now jump ahead to doing things like pattern welded steel and using cast steel, bessemer steel, open hearth steel, etc.  Now these things are a bit fussier to weld than real wrought iron often because their welding temps are lower.  Now we start seeing more care taken with flux and temps and the discussions about it (some in Practical Blacksmithing).  BUT the historical *SCARF IT!* was still playing a part.  I have seen ludicrous scarfs done on some pieces that I weld "on the flat" .  If you are welding in a well adjusted propane forge you are not getting the fly ash and scale building up between pieces resulting in trash in the weld; following the instructions developed 200 years ago for a different material blindly may not be a help...

Note that how metallographers determine weld locations in Renaissance armour is often by find the line of "trash" inclusions from "sloppy welding" done back then.  (cf "The Knight and the Blastfurnace"  Williams)

[gote]

Thomas I love your historical outlooks. They give perspective on what I do.

It is not at all that unusual to do the right thing for wrong reason. This tends to reinforce the wrong thinking and create what I would call superstitions. Of course, what works works but the theory behind may be wrong. I have a nice story:

In a valley in California some people tried to grow oranges but the trees did not grow well. One of the orange farmers thought that there was an alien spaceship above the valley and that the aliens sent down electromagnetic radiation that killed the trees. He had heard about Faraday's cage so he put grounded wire mesh around his threes. The trees now flourished.

So there must have been a spaceship; Right?? -----No. The soil in the valley was deficient in zinc. Plants need zinc in minute amounts and the guy had used galvanized chicken net for his Faraday's cages.

Sometimes obvious conclusions are not drawn. This myth about copper contamination. We did it in Rothenburg and it has been common practice in Sweden. -- To braze in the forge using copper. If copper would contaminate the fire we would have had contaminated fires several times a week. But of course I have never heard about this myth in Sweden or Germany.      

[Frosty]

Practical Blacksmithing is a collection of trade articles and more marketing than anything else specifically. "Our cars are better than anybody else's, the houses we build are the best, NOBODY unplugs blocked plumbing as well as we do, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Nothing's changed. Heck, adds for blacksmithing equipment and tools are frequent posts here. All too often the most creative thing on TV are the commercials.

Recently I've been exposed to some pretty compelling arguments for scarfing, especially lap welds where the ends aren't even. Even the apparently extreme step scarfs are useful for maintaining specific dimensions. Are they always necessary? I don't think so, but that's just me I could be wrong.

Of course using a dirty fire will mess up your welds, don't poke the stock into the crud, just use the clean part of the fire. Is that some kind of secret? REALLY!? I used to love the arguments for poisoning the fire, with copper especially. My reply when I bothered was to point to the COPPER PLATED mig welding wire that smith used to tack his welds. OR present a piece of gas welding rod, also copper plated. Brazed joints can be a problem welding later on because you have to burn the zinc out of the joint to get a weld, I don't know where the copper goes.

The fellow who say you CAN'T weld in a gas forge actually mean THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO WELD IN A GAS FORGE. Nothing more than that, a little knowledge and a lot of practice just like everything else.

Frosty The Lucky.

[SReynolds]

That is another. Blacksmith Basics for the Homesteader if I recall, mentioned the penny thrown into a fire and no welds would take.  The author (DeLaRonde) likely never employed a gas shielded metal arc welder.

[ThomasPowers]

As I recall there is an issue under special circumstances where copper can migrate along the intergranular borders of steel causing issues and loss of strength.  

aha "Intergranular Attack of Steel by Molten Copper"   PDF under the auspices of the  AWS:    https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1978_01_s9.pdf

 

[Frosty]

Well goodness Thomas what olde time blacksmithe would even consider forge arc brazing 4340, 4140 or 304? They were much too knowledgeable to do that! <SHEESH>

Frosty The Lucky.

[gote]

Dear Mr Reynolds,

I apologize if I dissuaded your wearing the cape SUPER SMITH.

But on the other hand, as Steve pointed out (not using the word)

You can wear the cape SUPER DEBUNKER.

[ThomasPowers]

As Edna says "No Capes!"

[SReynolds]

Yes. That was quite brutal.  However not as bad as a jet engine ingesting my cape as Edna portrayed. !!