Burners 101

[671jungle]

Burner is too fast for the coupling. Didn’t have readied material to make a step nozzle so I threw a 3/4” - 1 1/2” reducer on the end. Seems to like it.

Happy holidays everyone! Thank you for all the help and great reading

https://youtu.be/lq3sABu5ezo

[Frosty]

Merry Christmas All.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

First, congratulations on such a hot flame. And then, yes you will most likely have to use a slide-over flame retention nozzle to sufficiently adjust the flame.

Or maybe not; have you tried wrapping paper around the mixing tube, and running it back and forth to adjust incoming air?

The video only confirms the photo; it is a perfect flame.

[671jungle]

On 12/25/2019 at 2:29 AM, Mikey98118 said:

have you tried wrapping paper around the mixing tube,

Seems to like it as is. I will add a choke for blademaking and welding. I am very happy with the rigidity of the design and heat it puts out.

However Another Frankenburner is on a tear with his compact high output ideas. Larger orifice + smaller mixtube = heat comparable to larger burners must mean proper mixing is starting right at the get go coupled with the proper retention nozzle?

[Mikey98118]

His ideas, and his success with them does not negate your success with this burner. Choices are a good thing

[Another FrankenBurner]

What he said. 

Your latest burner looks like a great burner.  On the easier to build end of the spectrum which is a great thing.  What was your reasoning for placing the air inlets that far from the end of the pipe?

[671jungle]

Thank you gentlemen. I base my ideas on the info you provide. It is much appreciated! I wasn’t sure how far I needed to open the intakes to get sufficient air, so I started at target distance from flame end and worked my way back. It also mitigates the need to bevel the reducer for smoother air flow. The 8” pipe in big box stores could be used too but the reducer must be beveled.

[Mikey98118]

Layout tool for air openings on tubes and pipes

Layout of air openings on tubes and pipes requires use of a straight edge that will maintain axial alignment during use. A short piece of brass, aluminum, or steel angle is the best option, although small lengths or channel, or of wood corner trimming, etc. can be made to serve. The smaller the burner’s mixing tube the narrower this special straight edge must be.

A brass angle with 1: 1/4" x 1/4” legs (0.0625" thick) is available from Onlinemetals.com.

[Mikey98118]

It has been proven that including some slant to the longitudinal lines of square or rectangular air openings will increase burner performance; at least on burner designs that include a larger diameter air chamber, which is connected to a smaller diameter mixing tube (via a pipe reducer fitting, kitchen funnel, etc.). Twisting a short length of brass or mild steel angle, will greatly facilitate the effort.

[671jungle]

48 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

Twisting a short length of brass or mild steel angle, will greatly facilitate the effort.

That is genius. I have thought of similar. Like cutting the slots then heating and twisting to experiment. but something tells me that would impede smooth flow.

[Mikey98118]

Twisting tube shapes tend to distort them. Twisting the angle tool is simpler.

"Genius" if I had thought of it twenty years ago. Today a better description might be something like "Duh!" 

[G-son]

11 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

...burner designs that include a larger diameter air chamber, which is connected to a smaller diameter mixing tube (via a pipe reducer fitting, kitchen funnel, etc.)…

A hybrid burner?

[Mikey98118]

That would be one example, among others. You need to keep in mind that the reduction in diameter is exaggerated past the optimal with that burner series, simply to make the reducer fitting easier to acquire. As burner sizes decrease, the optimal diameter changes also decrease. By the time you get down to 3/8? burners, a beveled internal sleeve inside the mixing tube and an external tube at the burner's rear (used as the air induction chamber) will provide all the added spin wanted; even with rectangular air intakes, a pipe reducer will probably provide way too much spin with parallelogram intakes.

[Gaznazdiak]

G'day all

I've been lurking about and reading all I can here for a while and thought it was time to introduce myself and do some brain picking.

I'm living on a grazing property in south eastern NSW, Australia, been fascinated by all manner of edged weapons since I was a sprout and have been dabbling with with making my own knives on and off for decades, primarily cold grinding.

I have recently decided to get serious with it, now I'm old and retired, and build a gas forge.  Like many, I'd love to make my own Damascus, but being a realist I know it's probably beyond what I'll be able to achieve with the limited setup budget, and more importantly, the skills I have.  Like Harry Callahan says, "A man's got to know his limitations".

Instead of building my own burner I bought one from fleabay.  The various bits are all good quality, stainless steel T, flare and nipple(8").  However after looking at Frosty's illustration in the PDF instructions, it seems that the jet is has been welded into place about 10-12mm too low in the T.

Before I grind off the welds and reset it to the centre, I decided to ask some newby questions:

How critical is the jet placement?

Is it worth trying where it is?

Is the aperture in the jet suitable at 0.05 inch? 

I have been a little confused by some of the discussions on flare size and shape, is the one in the pic suitable?

 

I would greatly appreciate any help or guidance anyone may have to offer.

Regards

Gaz

[ThomasPowers]

Since you can forge damascus (patternwelded) billets in a hole in the ground using home made charcoal, a hair dryer, a carpenter's hammer and a piece of unmodified RR rail, (Anstee did his Anglo-Saxon sword forging experiments using a cheese weight as his anvil), I am getting a very skewed view of your budget restrictions.

Re Burner: I am of the always try it first to get a baseline to do your modifications from.

[Buzzkill]

Also, that is not the T that Frosty recommends for a 3/4" burner.  Since it has larger openings for air induction it may require the jet to be deeper.  That also may result in the ratio of air to fuel not being consistent throughout the operating range of the burner.  To answer your question though, jet placement is critical for proper tuning of these burners.  If you can post a picture or two of the flame in the forge shortly after lighting it then one or more of the gurus can probably suggest alterations for fine tuning.

Unless you are planning on trying to return the burner then try what you have.  We all may be pleasantly surprised with the flame - or maybe some minor tweaks can get you what you want.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

8 hours ago, Gaznazdiak said:

south eastern NSW, Australia,

Welcome aboard mate. We won't remember that once leaving this post, hence the suggestion to edit your profile to show location. This thread will help getting the best out of the forum and stay off the moderators radar. READ THIS FIRST  There are quite a few members from "down under" if you scroll down to Everything Else you will see OZ Roll Call, great bunch there.

If you do decide to make changes, only do one thing at a time and take notes on what has been done. Like others said try it first because we don't know how the builder designed it.

[Mikey98118]

I agree that someone intended to do a good job of manufacturing your burner.

You need to light it up and post a flame photo if you want a proper evaluation.

It is very likely that the gas tube will need to be shortened. If you are fortunate enough to find a small enough die, then cut off the end of the gas tube, leaving one or two threads to help the die to start true, and re-thread the tube at a shorter length.

In any case, flame photo first. Your burner's gas jet is using a different orifice than the design calls for, which means the manufacturer may have already taken the gas tube's length into account.

 

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks for the input guys.

Mikey, I have a new regulator and such on the way, when it arrives I'll do as suggested and give it a try and photograph the results and post them.

[671jungle]

The difference of one drill size up on the intakes of the 1/4” burners. The nozzle with the most scale has the larger intakes.

[Gaznazdiak]

Hi 671,

That's quite a difference.

Possibly a silly newbie question, but as a shooter I found the only silly question when dealing with things that go bang is the one you didn't bother asking: is that scale from the extra oxygen?

[671jungle]

36 minutes ago, Gaznazdiak said:

is that scale from the extra oxygen?

Yes, too much oxygen introduced into the system creates an oxidizing atmosphere resulting in excess scale on the work and the nozzle. Nozzles should be considered as a consumable. Stainless nozzles last longer than black iron. 316 stainless lasts longer than 304 stainless.

When tuning your burner pay attention to the flame colors. Green ranging all the way to orange flames indicate a rich burn. Or incomplete combustion. A light pale blue indicates a neutral flame. It is pretty and doesn't look real, kinda ghostly. This is the tune for general forging. A pyrple flame indicates an oxidizing burn which will scale up the work. This is also a pretty flame, but not desired for forge welding. A lightly rich tune is desired for forge welding.

[ThomasPowers]

Coming into smithing through bladesmithing; I'm rather used to running rich or neutral. However there was once when I ran my forge extremely oxidizing as I wanted to create a very heavy layer of scale that when chipped off left a pebbly "hide" on the dragon door knocker I was making for a co-worker's new house.  (He has it mounted on his mantel I was told.)

[Gaznazdiak]

Thanks 671 and Thomas,

The more I learn, the more it seems I have to learn.

All info welcome, thanks guys.

[671jungle]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:23 PM, Iceman35 said:

I have decided on a paint can forge

Iceman, How's it goin with the build?