dps9999 Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Hey guys i am going to try and get into working with stainless. I just ordered a even heat oven. So i was planning on ordering some 440c and 154cm to get started with. Most of the knives i do are hunter,camp, fighter style knife. However there are 2 people i would like to make a kitchen knife for. So i was reading about 440c and came across a article that said it can stain when used on acidic foods so probily not the best for a kitchen knife. I also read the 154cm is a improved version of 440c so does it still stain on acidic foods? if so does any one have any other suggestions for stainless that would be good as a kitchen knife. please keep in mind i need a stainless that can either be quenched in air, plate or oil (parks50) and i have no access to any sort of cryo treatment. Thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 21 minutes ago, dps9999 said: ...... i have no access to any sort of cryo treatment. Thanks guys Most stainless will be improved with a cryo soak, I didnt realize Acetone was so hard to find in New York Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 i have no access to liquid nitrogen, i was told it could be done with acetone and dry ice but was no where as good and has "questionable results".....and wouldnt know where to even start looking, as i said i was told that the dry ice / acetone doesnt really do much and exact words this person said probily not worth the effort it would take to find it. I live in a small town and wouldnt know where to start. if you have a different opinion about the dry ice and acetone by all means my ears are open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacticallySharp Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Most hardware stores carry acetone. Even Walmart has it next to the paint thinner. In my travels larger grocery stores carry dry ice. The method works better than no cryo. A lot of folks expect a major difference. I only get a couple of points from it. I seem to get a deeper hardening more than a higher scale number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Steve, acetone is found in nail polish remover. It is an extremely common solvent and it is used for all manner of purposes. It can be hazardous and poisonous. Let me hazard a guess as to why it seems to be difficult to obtain it in New York. Acetone is an essential ingredient in the explosive T.A.T.P. (known as tri-acetate tri-peroxide). A peculiar explosive recently in vogue with radical Islamist terrorists Most of the recent terrorists' atrocities (in the last 10 or 15 years) have used it They call it "mother of Satan" because it very frequently blows up when it is being made or stored. The stuff is hard to detect as it does not have any nitrate or nitro groups in its molecule. Sniffer dogs have to be specially trained to detect it. SLAG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Are there any dairies in your area? Liquid Nitrogen is a common coolant for A-I and they would probably know where to pick it up. Last time I got some it was absurdly cheap though proper materials for handling it MUST be used for safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Acetone isn't hard to find, look in the nail polish section at any store and pick up a bottle of polish remover and chances are good it's acetone. Dry ice might be a little harder to find but I know of a local grocery store that gets dry ice shipped in the containers with the ice cream they order. They don't use it for anythin in the store once the ice cream is loaded into the freezer so it's likely I could have all I wanted simply by asking the manager. That said you might wanna ask at the local grocery stores if that's how they get their ice cream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 4 hours ago, SLAG said: Steve, acetone is found in nail polish remover. I am aware, I was making a point that cryo isnt that hard, he was giving up too easy. The dry ice/acetone method may only get to about -170F but it will force a lot of the austenitic-martensitic conversion. If you are serious about making quality blades, be aware that if you cryo or not, the un converted austenite from the initial quenching will convert on it own given enough time, leaving your blade with un-tempered martensite in its matrix, which will be very brittle. As TS already stated, it only adds a point or two to total hardness, but what we are after is forcing the conversion so we can temper it before it leaves our shop, and have a better blade in the long run. The extra hardness is just a bonus. Stick with quality carbon steel, or upgrade your process for the stainless, half measures avail us nothing, keep your quality high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumbojak Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: Are there any dairies in your area? Liquid Nitrogen is a common coolant for A-I and they would probably know where to pick it up. Last time I got some it was absurdly cheap though proper materials for handling it MUST be used for safety. Any farmer raising registered cattle will have a source on line for liquid nitrogen. We have two tanks and no dairy cattle. The American Angus Association is the big one here and might be able to put you in touch with a member who could get a tank filled for you whenever they get theirs done. Of course, you'd have to provide a tank and arrange for payment. The nitrogen deliveries are usually on a set schedule here, not sure about New York or if a different organization would be better to contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Thanks guys all good info.....Steve if you (and others on this thread) think its worth it by all means i have no problem taking the time to find the dry ice (the acetone is very easy to find) i didnt know where to get the dry ice (ill check some grocery stores as some have suggested). I cant afford the liquid nitrogen right now well the ntrogen i probilly could afford but i hear the containers you need are a few hundred bucks (i just put everything i had on hand into the oven so just dont have what i would need for the nitrogen container YET) as far as dry ice and acetone ill deffinitly give it a shot. The info i was given was that doing it by dry ice and NOT liquid nitrogen was basicly a waste of time. But steve you and a few others obviously feel differently so ill deffintly start looking around for some dry ice. I can only work with the info i am given or find and didnt find too much "reliable" info on the dry ice method but then a pair of people that have given me good advice in the past said its not worth it so i wasnt going to bother. obviously now that may not be the case. so ill give it a shot and see what happens... thanks tho i wouldnt of tried it if you hadnt made a point of it.............however does any one have a opinion on the original question??? it was.....".So i was planning on ordering some 440c and 154cm to get started with. Most of the knives i do are hunter,camp, fighter style knife. However there are 2 people i would like to make a kitchen knife for. So i was reading about 440c and came across a article that said it can stain when used on acidic foods so probily not the best for a kitchen knife. I also read the 154cm is a improved version of 440c so does it still stain on acidic foods? if so does any one have any other suggestions for stainless that would be good as a kitchen knife. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Actually you could also use industrial grade isopropyl alcohol and dry ice. Temperature is the same and much safer. Crysoak in LN2 means that you have to have a transport for It. Dewars get expensive quick. In NY you might find if a little more difficult to find acetone because of the Mother of Satan concerns atm. My experience with NY gov. was that they tend to think every one is a crook or insane except them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Some gas suppliers will do short term rental of dewars or even just take a deposit to get it back for quick turn-around stuff. Might be worth asking your welding supply place. Back in the dark ages I did science demonstrations with LN2 daily and had waaaay too much fun pushing the safety limits for my own entertainment. Fortunately I never shattered any essential body parts. Nothing better than a truly cold soda on a hot day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 thanks kozzy ill look into rentals, Charlotte....about ny goverment thinking everyone is a criminal..your deffinitly right,.... about the acetone...that isnt a issue i have lived here my whole life and you can get it everywhere....grocery stores, some pharmacy's.....i have a can downstairs i got 2 weeks ago at a harware store....that was never the issue that stuff is every where....i didnt think the dry ice acetone actually worked (i guess i was given bad info) and even that being said the original question ...was about what steel would make a good kitchen knife (take a look above) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Welding suppliers can get liquid nitrogen and dry ice in many cases. The thing with liquid nitrogen is that it is constantly gassing off, so you cannot store it for any length of time. At the foundry I worked at we poured liquid nitrogen right on top of the metal in the crucible as a cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 We use it at work for shrink fit landing gear components. A couple gallons in a dewar disappears in about 48 to 72 hours. We get it from our local compressed gases supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 good info again but as i said the container for liquid nitrogen isnt a option right now cant aford it, i will try to do the dry ice.....but again the question that i asked no one has even touched on that subject......the cryo thing was something steve noticed i may have "given up to easily" wich now that you guys have said it is worth doing i will try, but the question was about a type of stainless not the cryo, i appreciate the info on the cryo but does anyone have a opinion on the original question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 use either one, as I mentioned in the knife making classes and my book, pick one steel and use it until you really learn it, then move on to another if you wish. Dont just grab a bunch and dive in, you'll never learn that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 Thank you steve i completely agree with you on that one. i dont want to take on too much especially that i havent done ANY steel in a oven yet. Most of the knives i do are like hunter's camp...ect that kinda thing. how ever i do want to make 2 kitchen knives...yeh of course i could make them from anything even the 1084...wich might be fine for a chef that takes the time to care for that knife everyday. but for example one kitchen knife if it comes out good will go to my mother and she will not take the time to "care" for it besides washing it. and i had read that 440c is a good one to start with but then i read that it tends to stain from certain foods more than other steels thats why i didnt know if it is worth it to get the 154cm or another steel and start with that to get a better result....i think i may just get the 440c and if need be i can always make another from different steel down the line unless you have a opinion that may be better.....Steve also i dont want you to think i "gave up easily" with the cryo thing. i have put alot of reading resarch and work into every knife i made. i just knew i wouldnt be able to aford the liquid nitrogen container. and i really did think the dry ice thing wasnt worth the time money or effort as i was told that dry ice doesnt make any significant difference at all...i guess everyone here disagrees so i deffinitly will try it. I already did some reserching as to where i can get the dry ice (as i said the acetone is no problem) but the closest place i can get the dry ice is about 45 mins away (i am still looking ther may be some place closer but havent found it yet) i do have a question (or 2) First the cooler i use to mix the acetone and the dry ice can it be just big enough to fit the knife? or is it kinda like oil quenching where you want a bucket much bigger than the blade? Second is there any rule of thumb on how much dryice you use for how much acetone? I am also assuming that once you mix the dryice with the acetone it doesnt last very long maybe just long enough to do the treatment...am i right on that? will the dry ice keep longer if i put it in the freezer...since i will have to go 45 mins to get it i dont want to have to do the trip every couple days....so if i buy extra and try and keep it in the freezer it should last a little while right?.....the only experience i have with dry ice is my gradmother used to send us steaks packed in dry ice and i know it did dissapeer even in the freezer but obviously not as quick as if you left it outside....i am just trying to figure out how much i can buy and "keep" at a time. i did do a search this morning and tried to get info on this somewhere but i couldnt find anything with these details in it, so i figured you guys got real world experience with it and maybe could help....if these questions are answered some where SORRY if that is the case please point me in the right direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Where have you been researching this? Some of your questions make me wonder if you can safely handle liquid nitrogen it's as dangerous to mishandle as molten metal. Dry ice and acetone is dangerous stuff if you screw up. This isn't something a person should "figure out" is you aren't geared up and used to doing DANGEROUS things. Either of these methods have multiple failure modes that don't include your blade not getting treated properly. You might want to consider having your blades professionally heat treated and yes cryogenic treatment is technically a form of heat treatment being the far end of the thermal cycle. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Frosty's got a point that might be worth hammering on. Sure it's great to do it all in-house but sometimes it's worth it to leave the hassle to those who do it professionally. You likely wouldn't think of doing your own hot dip galvanizing...and probably wouldn't think of doing your own chrome plating. Why hassle with the more complicated end of heat treating if the cost to have it done to far better standards doesn't put you too far into the poorhouse? I look at it similar to an oil change: Sure, I can do it but the hassle vs extra cost to have it done don't balance out for me. Easier to make it magically happen elsewhere. Same is probably true for a lot of people on IFI who also take their car in for the oil change without blinking an eye. The tractor I do myself because I don't have to crawl around on my back in the gravel so the balance swings the other way there (that's a loose metaphor for the easier HT processes) It's nice to do your own from start to finish but don't dismiss the benefits of sending stuff out for complicated HT or other specialty work. I bet you already do for MANY aspects of home projects you need done without a second thought. Or you could weave, sew and dye your own jeans...some people do for the gratification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dps9999 Posted March 29, 2016 Author Share Posted March 29, 2016 Guys i am not talking about liquid nitrogen if i was yes i would spend the money to get a dewar and do things VERY carefully with a lot more research into it. As i said i dont have the money for a dewar wich is the reason i am not even thinking of liquid nitrogen now and not any time in the near future. At first i read some people and some one also told me the dryice method doesnt really make any difference in the HT. Obviously people here thought difference so did some more reading and alot of people say it does work quite good. After Steve (and others here ) brought it up i did more reading both on the internet and on some of the other forums. and plenty of people say they use the dry ice with acetone (some use kerosene, others use alcohol and say its safer) many have said you simply fill a cooler with the acetone alcohol or kerosene and slowly drop a few pieces of dry ice into the mix until it cools enough where you can put larger chuncks in with out having a huge reaction. If there is a safety issue with this please tell me what it is.....i can only make decisons and try things based on the info i have so if i am going to do something wrong please point it out. Also i have read just placing the knife between 2 chunks of dry ice (no acetone alcohol kerosene) can work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoRockNazz Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I think this is one of those things where yes, technically you can do it yourself, but the time/effort/money investment will be greater than simply sending it out to Peter's Heat Treat or whoever. A heat treating service has the added bonus of more experience and better equipment; they will get the most out of whatever alloy you go with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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