For when you don't have a Power Hammer?

[CAE]

This may not be the best place for this question but it's about Smithing and Tools and Power Hammers so I will try here. For those of us who've just started blacksmithing and don't have a big fancy Power hammer whats' the next best thing for drawing out material such as tong reins besides a hammer. I've learned thru trial and a lot of error that making tongs from too thin of stock is just not worth it. Seems to me you should start with at least 5/8 or 3/4" That means you got a bunch of drawing out when it comes to the reins. Any suggestions? Spring Fullers?  

[John B]

Technique and practice your hammer control,

Material should be hot, not warm, HOT !!!!

Let the hammer do the work and use appropriate places on your anvil as a fuller.

Hit it like you mean it, take a video of yourself and then look at it to see how you are performing and what works best for you, then you can improve.

Look at other 'smiths techniques and what they use hammer wise and develop what works best for you.

Or you could just weld on round stock to your forged jaws business end.

[Buzzkill]

Use a radius edge on your anvil and lift the stock so it's only touching on the corner then strike with the hammer face half on, half off the anvil.  This concentrates the force of your hammer blows in a small area and moves the steel much quicker than if the steel is flat on the face of the anvil.  Once you get close to the desired diameter then go back to the flat and true the reins up again.  I believe Brian Brazeal has a good tong making video where he starts with 3/4" stock which shows the technique.  Of course he makes it look much easier than most of us mere mortals can match.

[root]

Material should be hot, not warm, HOT!!!

Yup get it hot straight through. In other words once it's hot let it soak a few more seconds.

Use a bigger hammer too. Don't know what your using now but for big stuff drawn out, a 4 lbs cross peen does it for me. Once you hit that 1 inch or smaller Dia. it gets real easy and a lighter hammer works good then. 

Beat it like you are angry but with good hammer control. 

Also get a cadence worked out to prevent fatigue and when it does set in take a break it will also go faster if your not "working yourself to death"

Rich

 

[beammeupscotty]

Welding the reins on is a good way to avoid all that drawing out, but if you feel you need to do it the hard way, I find a bottom fuller of about a 1/4" radius is more aggressive at moving material than my anvil edge.  Also try to use the heaviest hammer you can comfortably swing.  When needing to move a lot of material, I use a 1.5 kilo hammer, sometimes even a 4 lb. hammer, though the latter is at the limit of my ability to use properly.

[Crazy Ivan]

You do not need square stock to make tongs. I make me bolt head  tongs out of 13" of 3/8" X1" flat bar. Less work to draw the reins down that way. I make my larger box jaws and flat bits/wolf jaws out of 3/4" bar stock but I make the jaw and boss (one or two heats) then cut the bit from the parent stock and forge weld on some 1/2" reins which I run out oval with a 1/2"-3/8" taper. Draw your reins using the anvils radiused edges or the horn. Your steel will move faster as you get comfortable with the technique. Also do not be afraid to get the steel HOT!! 

[jmccustomknives]

One little trick I came up with was making a hardie tool out of a pair of vice grips.  Weld a handle on if the material isn't long enough.  Grab it in the vice grips and you can use a sledge.  Of course if your anvil is too light that might be a problem.

[jukejoint]

http://youtu.be/GlpeoEALBpc

Great video anwersering your question 

[Mark Ling]

If you don't have an anvil, and cant use the horn , than use a RADIUSED EDGE on some kind of steel block or sledge hammer head. if you use a sharp corner than you run the risk of creating  a cold shut which will create a weak spot in the reins and it will eventually break. like someone said above use the horn of the anvil like a fuller to draw it out. If you don't have anything that I said above than you can use a cross/straight peen hammer to draw out the reins. now I have a quick question about drawing out steel on the horn, which is better, the fatter/wider part of the horn or the narrower/smaller part of the horn?

                                                                                                          Littleblacksmith

[lloe01]

34 minutes ago, jukejoint said:

http://youtu.be/GlpeoEALBpc

Great video anwersering your question 

Nice, especially with a 2-lb hammer.

[Forging Carver]

Brian brazeal has a video on making tongs. There he shows how he makes forward and reverse tapers on the edge of the anvil with half on half off blows. It moves the steel really effectively and should be fairly easy if you keep the steel hot. I don't think I will ever get myself a power hammer unless maybe to make hammers with. I find hand hammering is all the fun in Blacksmithing. There's nothing like putting sweat, blood, and tears into a project. The end result is priceless, literally.

[CAE]

Like any new venture I guess I'm just overwhelmed with everything to do with Black Smithing. So many vid's and so much good advice/ideas on IFI I want to do everything and I want to do it now. Need to come back to the reality that I'm nothing more than an apprentice at this stage and keep with the smaller projects (like Tongs) and get proficient at it before I go on to anything else. By the way Brian Brazeal is like a Black Smith God. I think he could move metal in his sleep. Couple of gents across the pond like Daniel Lea and Alec Steele also amaze me with the experience they show at such a young age. Off to light the forge. Thanks for everyone's advice.  

[Charles R. Stevens]

I don't believe any one mentioned a striker, a 6 or 8 pound sledge and some one who can wield it will help. It's best to use top tools for this as it saves the edges of your anvil from missed blows. If your helper understands what's going on, either of you can be the hammer man. 

[David Kailey]

On 3/8/2016 at 6:34 AM, Charles R. Stevens said:

I don't believe any one mentioned a striker, a 6 or 8 pound sledge and some one who can wield it will help. It's best to use top tools for this as it saves the edges of your anvil from missed blows. If your helper understands what's going on, either of you can be the hammer man. 

I totally agree. I would strike "deals" to use my buddies as strikers. its pretty amazing how much striking a guy will do for a 6pack. lol

[Charles R. Stevens]

Dad strikes for me occasionally, most of my budies run when they hear the anvil ring. As Dad isn't a smith top tools direct the blows better, tho I do indicate where to strike with my hand hammer

[Frosty]

Hiring help in the shop for beer! WOW, who'da thunk it!? I wonder if I'd have to buy good beer to get guys to swing my 16lb sledge?

Blacksmiths and beer, Hmmmm.

Frosty The Lucky.

[LawnJockey]

Here is my payroll dept.

[FieryFurnace]

Technique, technique, and more technique. There are plenty who will disagree, but if you work over the far and near edge of the anvil, using half-hammer face blows, with a good 4.5 pound rounding hammer, swinging the hammer head as high as you can reach, you can forge a pair of tong reigns from 5/8-inch or 3/4-inch in a couple hours tops. Look up Brian Brazeal and Alec Steele on Youtube. Both have good videos on tongs that show this technique. 

[Francis Trez Cole]

Tong making is rewarding. I use it as a warm up exercise each time I light my forge. I have used the edge of the anvil it works well. I find that a piece of round bar with a piece of stock that fits in you hardie hole welded to make a T works a little faster. I have several form 3/8" to 1 1/8" as I need more I will make more. It just depends how aggressive you want to be. I always say" Divide and conquer ". Make dents and smooth them out.

Toby Hickman was big on calculating out your steel. If you have a 3/4" piece of steel and you use 3" for the jaws, boss and start of the reins and you want an over all length of 16" you will need to start with a piece of stock 7 7/8" for each side of the tongs. 15 5/8 will give you one pair of tongs. Start out with mild steel and as you get better invest is 1045 steel that is what the tong making companies are using.  

A power hammer is great to have but when you get to the point that you are doing production work you will know when it is time to invest. There are other less expensive alternatives like an Oliver set up or a treadle hammer. Which you can learn to make your self

[Frosty]

One of our guys, Metalmangler, Mark makes tongs with IIRC 3/8"x3/4" 4140 in about 15 minutes, 20 or so for something special. He's been doing it I don't know how long but I've known him maybe 15 years now. One wall of his garage shop is covered almost to the ceiling with tongs maybe 2-3 deep. He can make the pair he needs faster than he can find one. We keep suggesting he start selling them but . . .

It takes me forever to make a crummy pair.

Frosty The Lucky.

[rockstar.esq]

One thing that's worked for me is to mimic Brazeal, Hofi, and Haberman and keep the hot end of the stock out past the edge of the anvil.  As you're doing half-face blows at the anvil edge you gradually pull the stock towards the anvil. An impressive amount of working time is lost by the anvil sucking heat out of the stock.  The portion of stock that's hanging past the anvil will conduct heat back into the area you're drawing out, allowing you to go MUCH further with every heat.  Watching experienced smiths doing it, you'd be amazed at how fast they can draw out a piece of metal.  I've found that the semi-rounded edge of an anvil leaves the stock hotter for longer than the horn of my anvil.  It's also got the advantage of giving me something to line up with so my drawn out stock is straighter.

If you've got a bottom fuller that fits your hardy hole, there would be even less heat sinking going on.  Just be careful about the fit of your hardy.  Wobbly nonsense quickly costs you time and energy.  Something like a smithing magician with "stops" to keep a uniform gap on the fuller dies seem like they'd be awesome for rookies because it's mostly impossible to draw too much, and it's easy to see when you've drawn down too little.

[ThomasPowers]

Watching a lot of beginning smiths I notice that most of their time is spent NOT hitting the metal.  I particularly don't like the ones putting the hot metal on the anvil to cool off while they reposition their tongs and strongly encourage them to do any tong repositioning while the piece is still in the forge getting/staying hot.  A trick for the more advanced ones is to hold the piece just barely not touching the anvil and letting the hammer push it that last tiny bit so it's only in contact when it's being worked.