Klorinth Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Morning All, Being the newby, I am slowly collecting tools and equipment, reading books, and trying to learn what I can. I have now started to think about where I am going to be working and practicing. During last summer I set up my little propane forge and RR tie anvil in the garage and moved them around as needed. Since I have decided to start using a solid fuel forge I can't continue to use the garage. My wife will never allow it due to the vehicles and her wool milling equipment that live in the garage. No big deal I have a metal sided shelter out in the livestock area that I store tractor implements and hay in. I can use part of that. I'll build everything onto movable platforms/pallets that I can pick up with the tractor. I have lots of used metal roofing I can use to enclose and cover everything. I am thinking further down the road to the possibility of setting up a small shed on its own where I could set things up permanently. That new "shed" would be in the backyard about a hundred feet from the house. In a couple years what types of materials should I look at using for control of the noise of a working smithy? I have read a few of the older threads that talked about this a bit. I understand the information about isolation of the power hammers and such heavy equipment but I am unlikely to ever have those. I am just looking at small power tools and the hammer. I am experienced with the use of mineral wool insulation, foam insulation (spray and board), and the use of drywall. Our house has an ICF foundation ($$$). I have looked at double walls ($$). Landscaping is too destructive to the yard... From my reading it seems that to reduce sound you need to absorb it or redirect it. So to absorb it I would need a combination of very dense and light materials. To redirect it I need something that will deflect it straight up. I am wondering about the usefulness of gravel gambions for absorbing and deflecting??? What else should I look at? you may wish to check your use of terms. a Rail Road Tie is normally made from wood, occasionally concrete, Some peopl have used R track sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gote Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 You do not say whether you are worried about sound escaping from the shop or sound levels inside. Anyway, If you keep the level down indoors, less sound will escape to the outside. To keep the indoor level down, the first thing is to try to silence the sound sources. Look at the threads regarding silencing anvils. Second thing is to absorb the sounds. Avoid flat hard surfaces on walls and ceiling. The ceiling is the first place to put up absorbents. (Since the ceiling is "out of the way") A good design is to have a roof that is ventilated to the outside (to avoid condensation) and a ceiling of relatively thin mineral wool sheet some 5 cm down. The space increases the absorbing property. Also if the ceiling is tight but the roof has openings to the side there is less risk of condensation on the inside of the roof . To stop sounds getting through a single skin design, weight is what matters. The heavier the better. Holes in the walls let surprising amounts of sound through. Since you will need good ventilation it does not pay to invest too much to stop transmission unless you also put some damping devises in all openings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I wouldn't use Sheetrock myself unless it was given to me. I'm likely to knock holes in it or otherwise mess it up some how. I have 1/2" plywood on the outside of my walls and will eventually have some siding on that. I will eventually have it insulated with fiberglass and another layer of 1/2" plywood on the inside. When we build houses we put insulation in the walls around the bathrooms and the master bedroom for sound deadening. We use insulation for 2x6 studs in a 2x4 wall and it virtually eliminates all noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Get a fisher anvil; don't use an angle grinder; what noise? Out here adobe and strawbale structures are "quiet"; but our main problems is we tend to have very open structures due to the heat---great for avoiding CO issues; not so good for noise; so not making it in the first place is *good*. How about a nice thick hedge between the shop and house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klorinth Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 10 hours ago, gote said: You do not say whether you are worried about sound escaping from the shop or sound levels inside. Anyway, If you keep the level down indoors, less sound will escape to the outside. To keep the indoor level down, the first thing is to try to silence the sound sources. Look at the threads regarding silencing anvils. My bad, I did not clarify... I'm more interested in any new neighbours not complaining about noise. I'm rural but only a couple minutes outside of the city so more and more "city" people are becoming neighbours and they Do Not have the same ideas about what makes for a good neighbourhood. I am trying to anticipate problems I may have in the future and prevent them from ever happening. its makes total sense to just prevent the noise in the first place. So obvious I wasn't even thinking that way. Michael, I have no interest in using Sheetrock either. It's fine in the house but not in this type of building. Just not going to happen. I don't even like it in the garage. I am looking for something that is truly weather resistant. Something that can survive the extremes we experience. Cold, heat, rain, snow, wind, etc. That is why I bring up the idea of gambions. Being nothing but metal and stone makes me wonder. They have a great deal of mass to absorb sound. Although they are porous given that the stone is often loose poured gravel. I see that as a good thing for ventilation though. Their weight is also good thing when dealing with high wind speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Hedges are good sound baffles, good for the yard, can nearly hid your smithy or your neighbours. Now would be the time to start planning, and get a fisher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemish Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I have a peter wright that my wife cant hear from the house 25 yards away with the doors closed. Just strapped it to the stump nice ant tight. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klorinth Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 9 hours ago, turbo7 said: Hedges are good sound baffles, good for the yard, can nearly hid your smithy or your neighbours. Now would be the time to start planning, and get a fisher. You are completely right, a hedge is probably going to be required. I just wish I could get them to grow faster here. It has taken several years to get them big enough to start working. I have a buffer zone around the entire property growing. Mixture of trees and shrubs. Eventually it will be an effective barrier. I guess i could could start one right around the future building site. A dense hedge of carragana would muffle and deflect the sound up. Only if it is 5' or more tall. Around here that will take almost 10 years to grow properly. I have no problems with long term planning but that is a little too slow seeing as I would like to start building in about 2 years. I will have to think about how I might improve the growth. Being close to the house would let me do a few extra things like watering. A manure mulch would be easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 I'm with the 7/16 to 1/2" OSB on inside and out. The other thing that helps a lot is house wrap (TYVEK as an example.) also vaulted ceilings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 How about alternative construction techniques like straw bale, earth berm, rammed earth, etc? These will provide quiet plus they have excellent insulating qualities for those of you in the frozen white North. Cost is minimal, but they can be labor intensive. The rammed earth I like is the one with used tires rammed with dirt off the property. Rebar connects the layers, and shotcrete can be used to give it a finished look. Tires are free, and you already have the dirt on site. With an average of around 350 sunny days my smithy is in the open. I made walls to block the wind out of 55 gallon drums on their side, and welded together. The walls are free standing and are 8'Tx10'Lx3' thick, and they are movable with my forklift. The open top drums provide storage holes. The same concept could be used for you, but add a layer on the solid backside to dampen the sound. I got my 52 drums for free, and I see them fairly often for not that much, say $4 each. Anvils, and grinders will be the big noise makers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klorinth Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Drums... Now that is a new one for me. I have done a fair amount of reading and discussing of alternative building materials and that is one I have never heard of. Interesting idea. I can see the potential in the right situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Gambions should help, although you might as well use something, as was mentioned, that could be load bearing. Perhaps concrete block or slipform? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 There is another construction method that uses foam blocks like Legos. Around here they are called ICE homes. You stack the blocks, then fill with concrete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klorinth Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 Insulated Concret Foundations around here. Our house has that. Very expensive. Everything I build right now is temporary and movable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 You might just use 2x4" construction on 4x12" skids. No floor (ie dirt floor). Use fire resistant batting for the sound abatement. You could use fire resistant paint for the interior if you wanted. You would probably need stringers across the skids to move it, but steel stakes on either side would stabilize the skids when in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 id be worried that the haybales might catch on fire. that would be pretty bad Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 hay bales are typically plasterd with Adobe/cob. This makes for a air tight fire resistant barrier. Adobe, cob. Ramed earth, earth bags and tire walls are all high mass options. Labor intensive but materials are affordable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 The ICE homes are not just an insulated foundation , but wall construction. The blocks are stacked, then filled with concrete. There is also a system that uses speakers. The system picks up the sound, then plays it back 180° out of phase. The opposed sine waves cancel each other out. I have seen demonstrations done with stationary engines. But, the best way would be to silence the noise at the source, and have a construction method that catches the stray sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Actually the bales they use for housing are packed so dense that air can't get in and so they are quite fire resistant. My old vicar built a strawbale house and we had regular tours of it as it was constructed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klorinth Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 To be honest the simplest thing I could do with the materials I already have would be a shed within a metal shelter surrounded by flax straw bales. Walls would be insulated and absorb sound, and a fabric roof would send the sound straight up. There are many different types of materials I could use if I had an extra $50K, but that just isn't going to happen. thank you all for the ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 How do you think drywall plaster over screen mesh would work on the inside for sound dampening and spark abatement? I worry about wayward sparks finding their way into little nooks and crannies in a typical wood shed. I'm thinking about the fiberglass screen mesh as it is pretty inexpensive although the metal might be a little more heat resistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Fire rated drywall or tin works well, or both. Fire rated drywall has a 30min burn threw rating. So two layers taped and mudded give you an hour. Tin is nice when something hot goes flying across the shop and hits the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natenaaron Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 My grandfather had two farms. One was near the main road into town. Some developer brought in a tightly packed group of condos right next to one of the pastures. The "city folk" who wanted to move to the country started complaining about the sound and smell of the cows. he and the county laughed at them. they moved into the country and country is what they got . Not sure how Canada handles these things but check on your zoning. You have a working farm and farms make noise. There might not be a reason for you to worry about noise and the neighbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Earth burning and sod rooves were invented for that environment, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klorinth Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 Natenaaron you are completely correct to a large extent. Farm land surrounded by farm land. But things change over the years. I like to be prepared. I have a 30' to 100' buffer around my working land. In the buffer I am growing trees and shrubs to create a wall that will block sound and sight. It takes many years to grow. Hopefully it will be in place before a "trouble" neighbour arrives. Charles, long term I would love to do a bermed forge, green roof, South facing with full wall doors that can be opened in good weather. That would be glorious. Something to dream about for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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