The 10 Trials of the Master Bladesmith

[Shamus Blargostadt]

I don't know if URLs are frowned upon (I think I've seen some before) if so please delete and accept my profound apologies.  Otherwise, I thought this was a very interesting article.

 

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-ten-trials-of-the-master-bladesmith

 

[ThomasPowers]

Though they confuse being a master bladesmith with being rated a master in the ABS.

Not all master bladesmiths are members of the ABS; though I would agree that all members of the ABS rated as Master are master bladesmiths.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by ThomasPowers

[cliffrat]

There are probably a couple of guys with a JS or MS rating that are ........how shall we say this? Never mind.

Undertaking the decision to get an ABS rating is a serious commitment. I have been contemplating it for a couple of years now. I think I have finally got to a point where I can meet not only the ABS standards for JS, but my own standards as well.

[swedefiddle]

What about "BS"???  It could mean many things!!

Neil

[Steve Sells]

This is partially crap, like stating 300 folds to make pattern weld, anything is going to wash out any patterns even at 40 folds. they should really pay attention to what they are publishing. Wanting secrets is one thing, intentional misleading is wrong.  They take your money for a few years before even looking at your work? they are a bit full of themselves thinking only they can be Masters as a standard policy statement.   I have heard a few of them rant before,  attempting to discount non members work in order to boost their own from a local so called Master.  It is sad really. After the disappointing interview with the local ABS I decided its not a party I want to join Comrade.

[jmccustomknives]

This is partially crap, like stating 300 folds to make pattern weld, anything is going to wash out any patterns even at 40 folds. they should really pay attention to what they are publishing. Wanting secrets is one thing, intentional misleading is wrong.  They take your money for a few years before even looking at your work? they are a bit full of themselves thinking only they can be Masters as a standard policy statement.   I have heard a few of them rant before,  attempting to discount non members work in order to boost their own from a local so called Master.  It is sad really. After the disappointing interview with the local ABS I decided its not a party I want to join Comrade.

I happen to agree.  Any group that has a vested interest to keep an "Elite" will become political.  While testing is a worthy thing and the goals do show a certain mastery of the materials, when those that need to keep their group small are doing the judging it tends to get skewed.  After all, you wouldn't want 6 master smiths in an area all trying to make a living.  Better to keep it at 1, even though the others are more than capable and perhaps better.

[cliffrat]

I happen to agree.  Any group that has a vested interest to keep an "Elite" will become political.  While testing is a worthy thing and the goals do show a certain mastery of the materials, when those that need to keep their group small are doing the judging it tends to get skewed.  After all, you wouldn't want 6 master smiths in an area all trying to make a living.  Better to keep it at 1, even though the others are more than capable and perhaps better.

 

This is partially crap, like stating 300 folds to make pattern weld, anything is going to wash out any patterns even at 40 folds. they should really pay attention to what they are publishing. Wanting secrets is one thing, intentional misleading is wrong.  They take your money for a few years before even looking at your work? they are a bit full of themselves thinking only they can be Masters as a standard policy statement.   I have heard a few of them rant before,  attempting to discount non members work in order to boost their own from a local so called Master.  It is sad really. After the disappointing interview with the local ABS I decided its not a party I want to join Comrade.

Ahem. Allow me if you would to offer contradicting opinions. There are common misconceptions about the ABS in these statements.

First of all, I would like to point out that the author of the article referenced in the link above is neither a JS or MS in the ABS and his word about what the ABS sanctions or not is not to be considered the "official" position of the ABS without consulting Mr. Harvey Dean (who is referenced in the article). This article was not "published" by the ABS and should not be misconstrued as an "official" ABS publication. I don't see anywhere anything about "washed out patterns" at 300 layers. I do see a totally incorrect reference to "300 folds" for the MS dagger, so that brings the author's ability to accurately translate information from Dean to print. It should be the author's credibility in question, not the ABS's credibility.

Secondly, the ABS has no "vested interest to keeping an Elite" (the author of the article calls the MS group an elite, but that is his opinion only) and there is no "need to keep their group small". Quite the contrary, actually. The ABS encourages membership and accreditation testing at all levels, and the numbers are growing.

This statement  also doesn't hold water for me: "After all, you wouldn't want 6 master smiths in an area all trying to make a living.  Better to keep it at 1, even though the others are more than capable and perhaps better." I have three (3) MS rated smiths all living within a 45 minute drive of my house. None of them is in competition with the others and they all do quite well regardless of the close proximity to each other. I am personal friends with two of them and they both encourage me to get my JS stamp and eventually an MS stamp. The truth is that competition is good for business. Ask anyone who owns, or has owned, a business. Competition pushes standards and quality up, encourages innovation, and attracts new customers. ABS master smiths have nothing to fear from one another.

"They take your money for a few years before even looking at your work? they are a bit full of themselves thinking only they can be Masters as a standard policy statement." This is also incorrect and misleading. You do not have to be a member "for years" before being able to participate in any ABS functions, including knife shows or competitions. You have to be a member for at least 3 years before you can test for JS. This makes sense to me. If the ABS is the organization issuing the certification, and the smith is the one benefiting from that certification, then the ABS has a right to expect some sort of reciprocal commitment from the smith. Frankly, 3 years of membership dues for the chance to get a life-time certification that can never be retracted and needs no renewing, or continuing education, is a pretty good deal. I hold a number of professional certifications and the organizations bleed you dry every year or they pull the cert. The ABS doesn't say that no other organization can certify a Master Smith. There are several organizations in Europe that do just that. The ABS doesn't say those certs aren't valid.

As a knife maker, you have to decide whether membership in a maker's organization like the ABS or KMG is right for you, and whether it is good for your business. After attending the ICCE show in September, I met makers from both organizations and some of them are members of both organizations. The membership or certification is only as valuable as what the market says it is worth. Decide for yourself based on market principles and business needs, not on misinformation, biased opinion, and random internet articles that don't even cite the owners of copy righted photographs they use. Personally, I find ABS membership to be well worth the price I pay for it. The smiths I have met and talked with are very supportive, willing to help me improve my skills, and great to network with. Yeah, sure there may be a few grumpy old farts in the ABS who are miserable to be around, but you could say the same thing about this forum. That's no reason to disrespect the entirety of the organization.

[Steve Sells]

I am making my statements based on my experience with the so called MS I had been subjected to dealing with here in Indiana.  Which was only slightly more distasteful than one that used to show up here to power trip on and off again many years ago.  So far the only MS from that group that has acted with any respect to me or my teachers was Kevin Cashen, He has always been the utmost example of kindness, respect and a positive experience to me and others that I know, but sadly when I talked to the local MS in Indianapolis I was turned off.  Kevin has been the exception, not the rule of that good ole boys club.  The rest I have the misfortune of dealing with are now personna non gratta after the insistence that only ABS MS be allowed to teach, or publish books about the subject of knife making, and I can back this up, so can my lawyer.   Most of those who crossed my path thought they had the power to abuse anyone that is not paying them dues.  Of course they are nice to you, you are paying them.  Defend them all you wish, its still a free country. I want nothing to do with that type of a brotherhood, and I am warning others to beware.  Maybe I should publish the full story but I do not think it would change a thing, and in the end only the lawyers would win.

[cliffrat]

Steve, I am sorry to hear about your negative experiences. I am glad to hear that they occurred many years ago and would ask you to reconsider your position as it may be as outdated as the attitudes that those bad apples displayed in the past. I have never heard such rubbish as this directly from any member of the ABS: "the insistence that only ABS MS be allowed to teach, or publish books about the subject of knife making", and would argue the point with any of them should they make such a ridiculous claim. If I believed otherwise, I would never visit this site and neither would the other ABS members that I see around here sharing info and participating in discussions. Kevin Cashen is, in my experience, the typical MS and a wealth of experience and knowledge to anyone inclined to ask and listen.

You are right, it is a free country, do as you wish. The decision to join a "brotherhood" like the ABS or Knife Maker's Guild, should be a business decision, just like joining a union or trade association is. In the end, it is the members that make the organization and form its public identity.

[Steve Sells]

 

Domlovac Sava is still the only MS in Indiana so forget it.  As long as his pompus ego is around I will not have anything to do with them, the other people I may tolerate, and I admit it is my choice to hold a grudge and remain hostile about his statements about me, my work skills, and my teachers.   I know a few others that were also told we have no right to publish books.  I offered to give one a "free jujitsu lesson", as I also teach that subject. and have for 30+ years.  He left me alone after that. I didnt insult him or any one, but if that is how they wish to relate to people that have  helped in my growth as a smith,, then I am gone, and I prefer it that way, I have some loyalty to my teachers.

[cliffrat]

My first thought was "Who the heck is Domlovac Sava?" My second thought was "and why does his opinion matter?"

Really Steve, I like you and I appreciate your advice and knowledge, but sometimes your logic eludes me.

BTW-If I insult you, can I get some free lessons? I'd love to start studying martial arts again.

Thanks for the chat.

[Frosty]

He's easy enough to find him Cliff, first page of the MS listing on the ABS site.

No other comment, no dog in the fight.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Sells]

Mr Sava is the only MS listed within driving distance, and that would place me under him if I was a member acording to what I have been told. How is that logic hard to follow

[natenaaron]

Interesting.  Except for the ABS, which did not exist until 1973, was there even a master blade smith designation, or did that fall under the umbrella of a blacksmith organization?

[ThomasPowers]

Yes there was such designation here in the US; but it was an accolade given by the people at large.

[cliffrat]

He's easy enough to find him Cliff, first page of the MS listing on the ABS site.

No other comment, no dog in the fight.

Frosty The Lucky.

And a Google search of his name + knives provides very little evidence of his existence.

Mr Sava is the only MS listed within driving distance, and that would place me under him if I was a member acording to what I have been told. How is that logic hard to follow

I mean no disrespect, but I am gracefully bowing out of this conversation.

Edited October 8, 2015 by cliffrat
missed something

[cliffrat]

Interesting.  Except for the ABS, which did not exist until 1973, was there even a master blade smith designation, or did that fall under the umbrella of a blacksmith organization?

Nate,

The designations of  Journeyman, and Master when referring to craftsmen or tradesmen (or women) have been around for centuries, if not millennia. They started with the development of the Guild system, probably in ancient Egypt or Greece. These organizations were made up of respected craftsmen in the society and were largely self-governed as far as determining what the criteria were for Journeyman or Master classifications. The guilds became what we now call Unions and are still largely self-governed with respect to establishing levels of competency and awarding the tags of Journeyman or Master. In light of this historical method, the ABS is following a traditional development of a group of competent smiths who organized themselves and established criteria for membership and competency testing. The only real difference between the ABS and the guilds of old, is that in the old days you simply weren't allowed to practice a trade unless you were sanctioned by the local guild to do so. This is still true today in some European countries like Germany where laws exist to limit what can be done and by whom insofar as various trades are concerned (carpenters, roofers, welders, electricians, beer brewers, etc.). Like I said, the guild system was replaced in the USA by the union system, and the art of the blacksmith all but died with the advent of the industrial revolution. In the early part of the 19th century, you went to a blacksmith if you wanted anything made out of iron or steel. You want a shovel and a pick? Go see the blacksmith. You want a new bit and halter set for your horse team? Go see the blacksmith. Today you go to ACE hardware or a tack shop for that stuff or buy it online from one of dozens of retailers who buy it from factories all over the world. The ABS is a throwback to another time, and I respect that and I appreciate what they do. If you don't and think they should behave differently, I think that you have two choices:

1. Don't join. That's your right.

2. Join and try to help guide the organization in the direction you'd prefer.

I don't think anyone has the right to sit on the sidelines and throw stones anymore than I think anyone has the right to deny someone else the right to practice their art the way they choose to. Just my opinion.

[j.w.s.]

I'm with Steve. I have a very good ms friend in the abs. That said, my issue with the abs is this: pay us x amount for 3 years, test, if we accept your first 3 years work pay us for the next 3 and we'll test again - pay a lot more money, present us with knives, if we like you we'll give you your js stamp. If not, keep paying us money, we'll eventually get you to pass. Once the whole ms thing comes into play, it's: give us money, show up at one of two shows, maybe if we like you our panel of five will declare you a ms - if not, pay your dues and try again. Sorry, but my customers who use my knives on a daily basis give me all the validation I need, bottom line. The abs has become a political entity in and of itself and I'm in the business of making knives and money.. not spending it and playing games, I'd still be living in my parents basement were that the case.

J

[cliffrat]

I'm with Steve. I have a very good ms friend in the abs. That said, my issue with the abs is this: pay us x amount for 3 years, test, if we accept your first 3 years work pay us for the next 3 and we'll test again - pay a lot more money, present us with knives, if we like you we'll give you your js stamp. If not, keep paying us money, we'll eventually get you to pass. Once the whole ms thing comes into play, it's: give us money, show up at one of two shows, maybe if we like you our panel of five will declare you a ms - if not, pay your dues and try again. Sorry, but my customers who use my knives on a daily basis give me all the validation I need, bottom line. The abs has become a political entity in and of itself and I'm in the business of making knives and money.. not spending it and playing games, I'd still be living in my parents basement were that the case.

J

Only a few pieces of misinformation here.

First of all, the three year wait is for the JS test elligibility (reduced to 2 years if you take an intro to bladesmithing course from an ABS accredited school). You don't have to wait another three years to test for MS. Two is the minimum.

Secondly, it has nothing to do with whether or not they "like you", it has to do with whether or not your work meets the published criteria. http://www.americanbladesmith.com/uploads/file/Testing/Judging Guidelines for JS and MS Candidates 4-24-2010.pdf

Next up, is the "panel of 5 judges" item. JS testing is five, MS testing is seven. The applicant must get passing grades from a majority of the judges on the panel. Panels are comprised of previously rated MS makers.

I don't understand this bit at all: "The ABS has become a political entity in and of itself ". In what way is the ABS a "political entity?" It's a trade association. The same as any national association of trades workers or a nationally recognized Artist League. I noticed that you belong to the PA Artist Blacksmith Association. Is that a "political entity?" Is paying your annual membership dues to them "playing games?" No is the answer to both questions. Your decision to pay your PABA dues is a business decision you made. Just as my decision to join the ABS and ABANA, and SAL, and AABA were all business decisions for me. Just as they should be business decisions for anybody and be based on factual information. These decisions should not be based on unsupported claims and biased opinions.

You imply the ABS membership dues are some huge amount of money, ($65/year) and the return from the ABS to its members is zero. Frankly this is misleading. The membership dues are on a par with all of the related organizations that I belong to, and the benefits of membership (with or without the JS or MS stamp) are equal to, or above the returns I get from other similar groups. I'm pretty sure the same is true for the Knife Maker's Guild membership, although I have not joined that group, yet.

I am not saying that you are not a good knife maker unless you join the ABS or KMG, far from it. There are many excellent makers out there who belong to neither one. I judge the tree by the fruit it bears. I suggest that method for everyone. So, aspiring makers can view the knives you make and decide if they want to take classes from you, and they can view the knives that ABS members have on the ABS forum galleries and their personal websites and decide if they want to follow the ABS path. Either one is a valid choice that individuals must make for themselves.

 

 

[Charlotte]

Don't have a dog in this fight, but this phrase from cliffrat  reflects my disinterested view of ABS  In what way is the ABS a "political entity?" It's a trade association.

 

[Jspool]

Gotta put my 2 cents in.  I have only been making knives for a couple years now and am a beginner. During these last 2 years I have met quite a few ABS smiths, both JS and MS. All of them, without exception have been amazingly helpful with sharing their know how.  I never experienced anyone with an attitude of secret keeping.  The ABS, in my mind is made up of folk of the highest integrity and sense of brotherhood.  Knifemakers as a whole seem to have these qualities, not just those who are ABS members.

[cliffrat]

I'm not sure I understand your point Charlotte (I can be rather obtuse sometimes...) Do you have a general dislike of trade associations?

[T.J.watts]

I haven't met any ABS smiths in person yet but I have met a few that were very polite through email and phone conversations, then after asking me to visit were rude and acted as though I was an irritation when they invited me. Some people are just that way and some just have very strong opinions. I am a member of SCABA and I've been looking at joining the ABS. I love making knives and enjoy learning as much as I can from any source that is factual. If I do join the ABS and work towards the MS title it will be for my own satisfaction and sense of accomplishment.

[j.w.s.]

In my defence, it was 1am when I wrote my last reply and I was heading for bed while trying to type that on a 4" phone screen, I should have read it a little better before posting it. Not that this will make any more sense as my daughter just woke me up at 4am and I'm just trying to get myself back to a state of sleep. lol I'm not saying that it's a lot of money, but when it comes to cost vs benefits my membership PABA wins hands down by a long shot. I was an ABS member for years, had some personal things happen and for whatever reason couldn't rejoin immediately - went to again a few months later and got told that the "accounting period would be started over from the renewal date" aka, pay us again for another 3 years after that we'll let you take the test - ouch! I know there's bylaws and everything, so it's not as though I don't understand - but that just made it seem like a waste of time and money. Don't get me wrong, I've got friends in the ABS, I don't think it's all bad. However, in my years of membership, I didn't get that much out of it. A few things in the mail, a membership card, access to the forums (which are good, but I've learned more here over the years), and a few unhelpful contacts. My wife is legally blind and can not drive, I've got a 6 month old daughter and a teenage son, I need stuff close by and accessible. When I go to an event on a Saturday or do a weekend show, it takes a weeks planning just to make sure everything is going to work out for all of us, I can't just drive down to Arkansas for a workshop. Working out our schedules on a daily basis is a job unto itself and the fact that I'm able to do this for a living still astounds me because I feel like a taxi driver/personal chef/accountant/secretary/daddy/house keeper most days. PABA is local, my $25 membership gets me work out of the shop, it brings work into my shop, it promotes members at events both public (free) and semi-public (adm fee) all across my state every single month with exposure to well over a million people a year, it's a brothership/kinship/mentorship vs a stamp of approval and proof I paid their dues. We've got the old guys who pass on their wisdom, that go out of their way to invite the new smiths into their shops; we've got professionals, the retired-semi-pros, we've got hobbiest, we've got the curious - all walks of life, all manner of skills, and each one is willing to learn from each other and share what they know freely. A few sponsored hammer-ins scattered across the country each year, two annual regional shows and a private forum just don't seem to do the same for promoting members, growing their skills and actually bringing them work. While the mission statements of such groups might be similar, the business decision is clear to me as to which does more for it's members. Yes, it's great to pass a test, it's great to get recognized by your peers, but at the end of the day what really matters to your customers? Do they care that you've done these things and have kept up with paying your dues or does it matter more to them that they like what they see in your work and how it performs? I like what T.J, said: "If I do join the ABS and work towards the MS title it will be for my own satisfaction and sense of accomplishment." - I think that's the best way to sum it up.

J

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Cliffrat, many groups can become "political" when the wrong people get in charge. Some people get off on the power they have, and wield it in ways that it becomes political. You want something from me? Well now, seeing as I have issues with you personally..........  I have seen this happen in an few organizations.

To make it impartial the ABS would have to have a central testing and evaluation office. You would send your knives in to be tested, and evaluated, with the only info only being an ID number. They wouldn't know who made the knife, and it would pass or fail on its merits.