The 10 Trials of the Master Bladesmith

[JPH]

Hello:

As someone who has been doing this for a wee bit..and someone who will never achieve any sort of even base acknowledgement from the ABS for all that I have been doing for this art... I will say this: I will never, ever join a group like the ABS. Yes there is a sour history between them and I and it all comes from their end.

Granted I am an anomaly in this field..all due to circumstance and a bit of hard work..My joining any group would not benefit me at all...(and besides why join when I can continue what I am doing without someone else looking over my shoulder and trying to regulate even the materials I use to forge.  If I want to hand forge stainless steel  I will...)  I know that this is not the case with the majority of  folks doing this...the final decision is up to the one making it whether to join or not.. Now this being said..I like to stay low profile and out of the lime light for various reasons..one of which is my privacy.  I am too old a bunny to change now...

JPH

 

photo attached to back up my bone fides

Edited October 10, 2015 by JPH

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Jim, I don't think anyone would not consider you a master bladesmith. Your work is absolutely top notch in every way. Hate to see you leave for sunny Florida, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Do you have any of your books to sell, or are they only available through retailers? You can PM me with the deets. 

 

[Justin Carnecchia]

  In what way does the ABS say what kind of knives it's members can make?

 

 

 

[JPH]

JC: 

Back when I was being bombarded and other pleasantries.... the ABS guidelines said "No stainless steel blades"..to me that is pretty plain that they want to regulate what I use to make a knife. Just because they can't get stainless steel to perform decently doesn't mean everyone else would have the same problems. Sean McWilliams and I were hand forging stainless steels back in the late 1970's and early 1980's and getting some really DECENT results. Terry LaBorde was also making stainless steel pattern welded barstock back in 1979/1980 or so, but for some reason it simply wouldn't sell..Ahead of its time I guess...

I am not sorry to say that I have little use (if any) for a group like that .that would arbitrarily "ban" any material just because.... If someone can make a knife that can pass the tests out of high carbon, stainless or some other forged materials that meets their testing requirements as far as the way it works..I say let them do it... I even had two different so called "ABS MasterSmiths" say that stainless steel is impossible to forge..gee..if that is the case..how in the world did they make the steel to begin with??  So I just shake my head..laugh and continue to march..

JPH

[basher]

I am lucky enough to be friends with a few abs journyman and master smiths and quite a few smiths of equal talent who are not members. Horses for courses. I must say the the ABS master smiths have been as helpful , human and inventive as the other smiths (whom I would consider masters as well).

 I attended 5 weeks of ABS classes in the summer of 95 and it was a solid foundation to base my bladesmithing on, I believe I learned as much in 5 weeks as I had in the previous year at blacksmithing college, so I am grateful for that.

The ABS are a force in bladesmithing and there is no denying that they have done well for their corner , that is their job.

I am not a member , their way of knife-making does not really match mine, I am very happy in my own skin. however they are just a bunch of people doing a good job of promoting their craft. so good on them.

[cliffrat]

I think what astounds me the most about everyone here with negative attitudes towards the ABS is that they base that attitude on, and cite stories from, decades ago. Now I don't mind if you want to use old baggage and hold a grudge, that's a personal decision you make for yourself, but don't superimpose that event, and the personalities involved onto the entire organization, and don't assume that just because you haven't changed perspective, neither has the ABS. Organizations change with the times, increased knowledge bases, and leadership.

I'd like to clear up a point made by J.P.H.: The ABS does NOT say its members cannot make stainless steel knives, or forging stainless steel is going to decrease performance, or is "impossible" to forge. These are common misconceptions about the ABS (although these opinions may have been voiced by a few members previously, just as some stock removal guys have been noted as saying that forging a knife "messes up the steel" or that Damascus blades are inferior to stainless ones). The criteria for the JS testing (interestingly enough, not the same for MS) is using high-carbon steels, and the test does not allow use of stainless alloys. The reasoning behind this is simple, it tests a smith's ability to perform a specific set of criteria, using a narrow range of materials. It's called "setting a standard", and it levels the playing field for applicants. Allowing a smith to use any steel they wish introduces options for smiths to use steels that probably could perform the test under the worst of circumstances and that defeats the purpose of the test and alters the playing field. There are many ABS smiths of all levels, who use stainless steels in the knives they make. No, it is not "forbidden" or even discouraged by the ABS. Here are a few excerpts from the ABS website regarding the JS test and the materials a smith can use (courtesy of past board chair, Greg Neely):

this is only a test and a one-time requirement.  You are free to carry on as you will, once the test is finished.

My point is that your potential isn't limited to knife-related organizations, shows, or your rating, so good luck and get in there!

How much simpler can that be stated? Please don't take isolated incidents from bygone days and the opinions of specific people and claim that these are the ABS's official stance.

[cliffrat]

Cliffrat, many groups can become "political" when the wrong people get in charge. Some people get off on the power they have, and wield it in ways that it becomes political. You want something from me? Well now, seeing as I have issues with you personally..........  I have seen this happen in an few organizations.

To make it impartial the ABS would have to have a central testing and evaluation office. You would send your knives in to be tested, and evaluated, with the only info only being an ID number. They wouldn't know who made the knife, and it would pass or fail on its merits.

That's why it's a jury and a majority vote carries. This is standard practice in the industry (art world speaking). In any jury test, the jury wants and needs to speak with the applicant, ask questions about the submitted pieces, technical or otherwise, in order to verify the applicant is associated with the submitted works. Why should the ABS adopt any other jury method? Just because you think it makes it impartial? That's a rather subjective viewpoint.

You may have seen it happen in other organizations, but have you personally experienced it during an ABS JS or MS test? Or, is this second or third hand information about what goes on? Not that I discredit the idea entirely, I believe the potential is there. However, after speaking with many ABS jury members, I feel confident that the judging criteria is the bottom line and there is a system of checks and balance to avoid personality issues. Any MS who wanted to fail an applicant based on a personality dispute would find themselves never being invited to jury another applicant. I would echo the opinion of Jspool above:

"The ABS, in my mind is made up of folk of the highest integrity and sense of brotherhood."

[JPH]

Hello:

I am going to just say...there is a whole lot more to this..  (several folks on his site are aware of what happened and have seen it for themselves..) and I am just going to let you all defend them as much as you wish.  As I said I have no use at all for any group like that and i will continue  to write and research even though  ABS "Master" smiths don't like it much at all.  If they changed the "no stainless" stance over the years..maybe they are listening a bit...I still have no use for a group like that.

I have nothing more to say.

JPH

[cliffrat]

JPH: I would just like to say that although you don't know me at all, you were my first teacher and a fundamental inspiration to me as a bladesmith. Your books came highly recommended by two ABS MS even after I had already purchased them (back in 2004?). I do not know what the particulars are in your history with the ABS, but I do know that there are 3 sides to every story. Each party's side, and what really happened. It takes two to tango.

I agree that someone with your reputation and name recognition probably would not benefit so much from a membership in any organization as the organization might benefit from your membership in it. I however would greatly appreciate someone like you joining, just to have your opinions, methods, and techniques represented on the ABS forum. I am something of an anomaly myself in this business, and place a high value on diversity. Thanks for taking the time to join the chat.

[JPH]

CR: 

I am happy that you found my writings of some value. On the ABS front..there is more of a chance of Benjamin Netanyahu joining Hamas than me even considering joining the ABS. I have my reasons..

JPH

[T.J.watts]

what books are theses so that I may get them.

[Steve Sells]

The Pattern Welded Blade,  Dr Jim P. Hrisoulas (1987)

The Master Bladesmith, Dr Jim P. Hrisoulas (1994)

The Complete Bladesmith, Dr Jim P. Hrisoulas (1991)

Introdurtion to Knifemaking, SLSells (2015)

 

Keep in mind that none of these would ever have been published if the ABS  had gotten their way, its something to think about from a group that pretends to want to help people learn.

[JPH]

Steve:

You beat me to it..however the publication date of book I is 1987...just being a PITA. I had no idea until recently that you were getting the same heat from the ABS stormtroopers over your book as I have for mine. I am wondering what they have in store for me when book IV comes out. That should prove  to be very interesting.

JPH

[Steve Sells]

I am still reigning typo king. Sorry I just corrected it.  From what you and Bill told me, I got nothing like you did, I just had a few clueless wonders making cowardly threats, I gave them my Sisters law office phone number,  they seem to have lost their bark after they found out I was willing to fight back.  But the Sava MS I mentioned a few posts back really does not like us non members at all, he acts as if they [ABS] are the only ones with any right to make and teach.  I did enjoy hanging up on him, and if people think we are making this ABS stuff up, feel free to inform Sava about my comments and see If he wants to press for legal recourse I bet he won't, and I never said this happened to me "decades ago" so please don't lose focus of the facts, he really honked me off.

Some of the ABS MS I have met are very nice people, but there have been enough that have been jerks to myself and other non members that make it unpalatable.  I may have had a ABS MS stamp by now if it weren't for the bad mojo I was faced with.  But my blade craft and my book will just have to speak for itself now

[cliffrat]

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around all of this, and I am not questioning the integrity of either Steve or Jim, or the validity of their stories. If the legal attempt to suppress either of your rights to publish a book on any subject was undertaken by the BOD of the ABS, I would find that reprehensible behavior under any circumstances. If it was a matter of harassment by one or a handful of individual ABS members acting on their own, not on behalf of the ABS BOD, and they tried to make it seem as if it were, that is not only reprehensible, it should have been addressed by the ABS with reprimands and public apologies. (just my opinion)

Every group of people, officially organized or otherwise, will have its share of buttheads and over-inflated egos. That's just people being people. To quote Douglas Adams, "People are a problem." From my personal experience with the ABS over the last 9 years or so, I can honestly say that this thread is the first time I have heard about any member of the ABS trying to suppress either of your writings. Nobody has ever mentioned Steve's book and the only times I've discussed Jim's books, both of the conversations were positive about their value and both conversations were with ABS Master Smiths who recommended them. So, I guess the distinction I'm trying to understand is this:

Was this "heat from the ABS stormtroopers" actually coming from the ABS directorship, or are we talking about some self-appointed goons?

[Charlotte]

cliffrat , I would not be surprised if some self appointed "purist" decided that non-ABS should not be permitted to publish unsanctioned and unendorsed works on Knife making.

I have witnessed that tendency in other organizations.  There are always those who would rather appeal to authority than examine things as there are.  I do know of one ABS MS who, after passing his tests, suddenly became very ridged and protective of ABS.  The arrogance he subsequently displayed was a little off putting when any of the myriad sub techniques was discussed.  That said, he is still a heck of a good man and worth knowing.

[JPH]

CR since you asked:

Let me fill in some background.There was a time when I was seriously considering joining the ABS. In fact one of my dearest associates was a MS  in that group..(In fact he was one of the founders) and well..we were talking at the SOF convention out here in Las Vegas waaay back when...when another ABS  MS came up to him and said "We need to stop making this many Master Smiths"...This person shall remain nameless.. My friend just looked at him and said that they will discuss that later. My friend then turned to me and said that there was a lot of stuff happening in the ABS that he did not agree with and that I wouldn't like either... He suggested that I do not join....I agreed and I didn't join..He resigned a week or so later..His name is Bill Bagwell..

Few years pass..book I comes out and everything goes down the rabbit hole..I get calls and verbal threats made against me and my family...saying that I had no business writing anything cause I am NOT an ABS member..I gave away "secrets" and all this other drivel. I called the Pres. of the ABS and was told basically to go pound sand. So...it only gets worse when books II and III come out.  So why would I ever want to join a group like that? To be so arrogant and oppressive that they think that unless you are a member you couldn't possibly know ANYTHING of any value at all?? Oh come on...So I just continue to march and be a pain to them. After all living well is the best revenge..

So you can defend them all you want and spout off how great they are and all that..There are quite a few of us folks on the outside that have different experiences..I for one will continue to publish and do my research in spite of their objections..

JPH

[cliffrat]

cliffrat , I would not be surprised if some self appointed "purist" decided that non-ABS should not be permitted to publish unsanctioned and unendorsed works on Knife making.

I have witnessed that tendency in other organizations.  There are always those who would rather appeal to authority than examine things as there are.  I do know of one ABS MS who, after passing his tests, suddenly became very ridged and protective of ABS.  The arrogance he subsequently displayed was a little off putting when any of the myriad sub techniques was discussed.  That said, he is still a heck of a good man and worth knowing.

I would not be surprised either, but just because some dimwit with a bloated ego says something doesn't make it the opinion of anyone else in Mr. Dimwit's group.

I don't know the smith you refer to, and I don't really need to know who it is either. The ABS doesn't promote any specific techniques as the "right way" or the "only way" to do anything. It sounds more like someone deciding that a certification of some form made him the expert and the only person in the room who's opinion mattered. Sad, really. I had a teacher once who said "When you think you have nothing left to learn, it's time to find another occupation."

[cliffrat]

CR since you asked:

Let me fill in some background.There was a time when I was seriously considering joining the ABS. In fact one of my dearest associates was a MS  in that group..(In fact he was one of the founders) and well..we were talking at the SOF convention out here in Las Vegas waaay back when...when another ABS  MS came up to him and said "We need to stop making this many Master Smiths"...This person shall remain nameless.. My friend just looked at him and said that they will discuss that later. My friend then turned to me and said that there was a lot of stuff happening in the ABS that he did not agree with and that I wouldn't like either... He suggested that I do not join....I agreed and I didn't join..He resigned a week or so later..His name is Bill Bagwell..

Few years pass..book I comes out and everything goes down the rabbit hole..I get calls and verbal threats made against me and my family...saying that I had no business writing anything cause I am NOT an ABS member..I gave away "secrets" and all this other drivel. I called the Pres. of the ABS and was told basically to go pound sand. So...it only gets worse when books II and III come out.  So why would I ever want to join a group like that? To be so arrogant and oppressive that they think that unless you are a member you couldn't possibly know ANYTHING of any value at all?? Oh come on...So I just continue to march and be a pain to them. After all living well is the best revenge..

So you can defend them all you want and spout off how great they are and all that..There are quite a few of us folks on the outside that have different experiences..I for one will continue to publish and do my research in spite of their objections..

JPH

Thank you for the clarification. Before continuing with the general discussion, you have made a statement twice now and I need to address its inaccuracy before it takes on a life of its own.

"So you can defend them all you want and spout off how great they are and all that.." I am not sure who you are referring to. Firstly, I am not defending the ABS, I am asking you for specifics with regard to accusations you made. That's an important distinction and one worthy of your honest response. Secondly, I did not "spout off how great they are and all that" anywhere is this conversation. Please do not exaggerate my meaning or add extraneous meaning to my intention, which is to find out who did what, and when. The who is still unknown exactly, but it can be safely assumed that they were members of the ABS. The what is still somewhat vague, but acceptable as presented. The when can be deduced by correlating with the publication dates of your books. That puts the events in question between 21-30 years ago. Hardly current events or representative of the current state of the organization. Let me make an analogous story for a moment.

Let's assume that you are a home builder. The American Building Council (ABC) is a fledgling organization dedicated to writing building codes, standards of practice, education and certification of builders who know the codes. You are writing a book about the same subject matter. Some people (we will call them Mark and Andy) who are certified "code professionals" by the ABC take a disliking to your writing and engage you in harassment and intimidation. You call me, because I am the president and a board member of the ABC and ask me to stop Mark and Andy. I explain to you that Mark and Andy are acting on their own and do not represent the views and opinions of the ABC. If they are threatening you with physical violence, that is a legal and police matter that the ABC cannot get involved in. The ABC is not able to control what its members do in their personal lives, so I cannot help you. You interpret this as "go pound sand."

Now consider this connected series of statements: Mark and Andy are harassing Jim. Mark and Andy are members of the ABC. Cliff is the president of the ABC and refuses to help Jim. Therefor, we can conclude that Cliff and the ABC are supporting Mark and Andy and are responsible for the harassment. This is the type of conclusion that would fail the most basic quiz in a logic 101 course. Frankly, I think that you are way too intelligent to fail Logic 101, so do I have to assume that you have left something out of the story?

Edited October 16, 2015 by cliffrat
grammar correction

[JPH]

CR:

Feel the way you want to feel...say what you want to say...I spent 32 years of my life defending your right to do so.... All I ask is just afford me the same ... I will never ever even think about joining a group whose members act in such a way as they have towards far too many fine folks simply because they choose not to be members of said group.  Believe me...( folks that know me and my background will attest to this...)..I am being very, VERY reserved in these replies (no... mi amigos.. I am not ill...just remembering what my Papuli taught me years ago...).  I have no use at all for the ABS, and I never will. The passage of time does not make what happened any more acceptable..nor does it make what is still happening correct either.. I have no more to say on this what so ever. 

JPH

[Steve Sells]

....... and my issues were not from 32 years ago but you blew me off even after I listed the offenders name, you simply stated you cant find him anywhere; even though others had no trouble noticing him on the first page of the ABS listing, so it does seem you have an agenda.  I admit I have one,  mine is to warn people about the scam that is called the ABS, and it at appears yours is to discount anything that does not promote them.  I am sure they are very proud of you.

After stating no one can speak for the ABS,  you then presume to speak for them about things you were not around to see, even after Jim explained that threats were made to him and his family, you pretend he has nothing to back his statements up.   FYI Jim taught the man that spent 5 years to train me, so he is my "Forge Grandfather" of sorts, so I also must admit I feel a duty to be protective,  kind of like CR is about his ABS masters.  Also I know more of the story than Jim has told but, its not my place to talk about it other than to repeat I have had troubles with ABS power plays myself and strongly feel that if they really disapproved of the storm-trooper tactics they would have dealt with the issue by now, not pretend it didn’t happen.  Sava told me "Jim his not a master, has no right to write any books, nor teach others". This is the person I was sent to learn from, and that speaks  clearly for itself.

I will add that its an interesting fact that some people involved who used to be ABS members at that time, are no longer with that group, nor are they talked about in that group after the dust cleared,  but somehow you project that you are all knowing about ABS from then and decide it didn't happen, or does not matter any more

Basically I have now decided you wont listen no matter what is told to you, so this topic is now closed, problem solved.