Sign in to follow this  
ede

square hardy in round anvil hole

Recommended Posts

Does anyone know an inexpensive non-destructive way to make a square hole for my anvil?

 

So I got took my little 20 kilo (about 44#)  Peddinghaus anvil to a cnc machine shop hoping they could mill a square hole so I can make some bottom tooling for it.  In the process I had him re-surface the top. 

 

So when I went to pick up the anvil last night, he told me he was unable to machine the square hole because this metal was tough stuff, in fact he has broken some carbide bits while re-surfacing it.  I wish I had told him that the edge of the anvil was supposed to have a tapered radius because he ended up taking off a little more than I had expected (about a 1/4'').   Lesson learned!

 

post-23996-0-54438700-1423849482_thumb.jpost-23996-0-03595900-1423849497_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't that a square hole just before the horn of the anvil?

 

I pray your steel face was more than a 1/4" thick. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears as though it is square from afar, but it is indeed round.   I measured the heel of the anvil and it is over 1 inch so it still has some mass.  It's my understanding that this anvil is forged and therefore doesn't have a separate steel plate that is welded to the body. Maybe someone else could clarify this. 

 

And yes, the propane tank besided the anvil has been moved. 

 

Here is a picture pre-machining and also one that shows the round (drifting?) hole. post-23996-0-97427300-1423852563_thumb.jpost-23996-0-93167400-1423852578_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whats wrong with a round hole? I mean besides the fact tools may want to spin in it. I'd forge up your tools and then simply tack on an indexing tab that reaches over the edge of the face by the horn so it will not spin. Only real down side is that tools for use in that anvil would have to be single direction only.

 

That or I'd make yourself up a hardy block. Take a chunk of square tube and weld a plate or angle on the bottom for "feet", and a heavy plate with a square hole at the top for your hardy tools. A big swage block with square holes would also hold a hardy, or so would your vise in a pinch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get a large 3 square file and put some elbow grease into it.

 

Get a jig saw and rough cut it. 

 

Get a speed saw (air). Most speed saws hold files too. You could rough it with hacksaw blades then finish with files

 

Get a die filer. Even better would be a handheld die filer.

 

Get a dynafile and rough it out pretty good for hand finishing. 

 

If the hole goes straight through it can be broached. 

 

Bring it to a better machinist. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A toolsteel steel plate was usually forge welding onto an iron body.

Making the hole square isn't worth it. It would take indsutrial broaching machines and risk ruining the anvil entirely. Or you could use a square punch to drift it but then you need a big forge and a power hammer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Peddinghaus anvils forged steel?  Milling the top should not expose any iron, but probably removed some of the hardened section.  It might be OK, or not.

 

If your machinist said the metal is tough all the way down the hole, you might have to live with it.  If you file will not cut into it, I would go with the suggestion above about using round shank tools with an edge holding tab.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


What is the ID of the hole ?

If I were to do it myself and use hand tools the first tool I would pick would be a course Triangular File.
The whole doesn't have to be perfect, just close to the size and shape.
If there is a tool steel plate, 1" thick, that will be the biggest battle for the file.

First determine the ID, then the closest standard Hardy Tool Shaft Size or what you have available for tools, then start filing.

 

The round hole is 7/8" or 22.2 mm, I was planning on making it 1" square. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it is monolithic steel and does not have a separate steel plate for the face.

 

However they do not harden the entire anvil to the same hardness of the face and so you may have gone through the hardest bit.

You have decreased the use life by a large margin.

 

Do the ball bearing bounce test and if it comes out to a reasonable amount then breathe a sigh of relief as smaller anvils tend to harden deeper.  It may be more prone to future face damage so be careful with larger hammers and hammer control. If you have gone into a softer zone it's still usable it will just look worse than it starter a lot earlier.  I hope you did not have to pay someone to do this to your anvil.  (Machinists and Weldors do the most damage to anvils as they tend to not understand how they are constructed and used)

 

And a final plaintive "Why?"  I didn't see anything on the original picture that needed milling.

 

 

Forgot to add that EDM can change that round to a sq without messing up the temper; but may cost a bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok so he took 200 years of life off the anvil by machining it, maybe he is the sort of person who can buy a new anvil each year and dump the old one like some people get a new car when the ashtray is full.

 

yes the top surface will be hard but you dont know how deep that goes, when it gets thin it will break up like a badly maintained road and then you have a doorstop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it is monolithic steel and does not have a separate steel plate for the face.

 

However they do not harden the entire anvil to the same hardness of the face and so you may have gone through the hardest bit.

You have decreased the use life by a large margin.

 

Do the ball bearing bounce test and if it comes out to a reasonable amount then breathe a sigh of relief as smaller anvils tend to harden deeper.  It may be more prone to future face damage so be careful with larger hammers and hammer control. If you have gone into a softer zone it's still usable it will just look worse than it starter a lot earlier.  I hope you did not have to pay someone to do this to your anvil.  (Machinists and Weldors do the most damage to anvils as they tend to not understand how they are constructed and used)

 

I didn't pay him, it was a trade. 

 

And a final plaintive "Why?"  I didn't see anything on the original picture that needed milling.

 

I mostly wanted him to make the square hardy, that was my intention when going there.  When he put it on the surface platen and mic'd it, he said it wouldn't take much (.030) to true the face.  I hadn't thought about the differential heat treatment for the face at that time.  I'll know more once I do the ball bearing test. 

 

 

Forgot to add that EDM can change that round to a sq without messing up the temper; but may cost a bit.

 

I called a local EDM place and they quoted about $600 without seeing it.  It was important, but not $600 important!  Perhaps I will do what DSW suggested and just make tooling with an indexing tab or make a separate hardy block. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whats wrong with a round hole? I mean besides the fact tools may want to spin in it. I'd forge up your tools and then simply tack on an indexing tab that reaches over the edge of the face by the horn so it will not spin. Only real down side is that tools for use in that anvil would have to be single direction only.

 

That or I'd make yourself up a hardy block. Take a chunk of square tube and weld a plate or angle on the bottom for "feet", and a heavy plate with a square hole at the top for your hardy tools. A big swage block with square holes would also hold a hardy, or so would your vise in a pinch.

 

Good suggestions, thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greetings ,

Just my humble input but not that big of s problem.. Just get a die grinder with long stones .. Rough it out than finish with die long rectangular stones by hand ., All easy to acquire... Looks to be about 4 hours work,,

Forge in and make beautiful things
Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have seen inserts that have a round OD, and a square ID. I believe some smithing company actually sells them too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greetings

Something that says universal that fits all never does..LOL

Forge on and make beautiful things
Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greetings ,

Just my humble input but not that big of s problem.. Just get a die grinder with long stones .. Rough it out than finish with die long rectangular stones by hand ., All easy to acquire... Looks to be about 4 hours work,,

Forge in and make beautiful things
Jim

 The die grinder sound reasonable, Jim.  I think I will try that.   Thanks for the feedback. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have one of these anvils at the school and the hole is most definitely round. I never thought of having it square I just always used it as is. All of the bottom tooling I have made for this anvil has had a tapered round shaft to them. Similar to a Brown and Sharp taper. I did make a bending fork for it once. My first attempt had a tapered round shaft. When I first used it I drive down firmly to set it before a torque on it. It worked okay but it did get loose, which did not make me happy. Next, I welded some extra material on the top of the shaft below the bending fork. I filed it square to match the hardy on the anvil. That worked better but eventually after a bunch kids used it the corners rounded and it started to slip. On revision three I decided to think outside the hole and I welded enough angle iron on both sides of the fork to form a saddle across the whole face. It does not move and now the round shaft is more of an alignment pin.

I used that setup for a few years and it worked fine. I eventually made a new bender for the kids to use and I keep that clamped in the post vise. The vise is secured better. Even though the anvil is mounted to a stump, it really does not have enough mass to do heavy stock bending. The stump just spins. Even though it is small, that little anvil is one tough little bugger. I would think it would be a lot of work to file that hole out. The steel quality is amazing. If I am ever financially well off and I feel as though I need a brand new anvil, a big Peddinghaus would be my choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why did you have it machined? Was it so damaged it was unusable? How much do you know about machine shop work? Did you TELL them it was hardened high carbon steel? Didn't they give it a quick test before chucking it up in the mill? If they didn't they deserve to eat the cost of all the carbides they wasted. <sigh>

 

As a rule of thumb NEVER modify the tools of a trade you are just learning. I don't think you did it any serious permanent damage but you sure didn't do it any good.  None, ZERO. Hurt it you did though.

 

Now you want to change ANOTHER factory feature of the tool? Oh go ahead, get it out of your system, just do me a favor, don't buy another good anvil till you learn the craft. Please.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why did you have it machined? Was it so damaged it was unusable? How much do you know about machine shop work? Did you TELL them it was hardened high carbon steel? Didn't they give it a quick test before chucking it up in the mill? If they didn't they deserve to eat the cost of all the carbides they wasted. <sigh>

 

As a rule of thumb NEVER modify the tools of a trade you are just learning. I don't think you did it any serious permanent damage but you sure didn't do it any good.  None, ZERO. Hurt it you did though.

 

Now you want to change ANOTHER factory feature of the tool? Oh go ahead, get it out of your system, just do me a favor, don't buy another good anvil till you learn the craft. Please.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Remember it is his anvil to do as he pleases. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember it is his anvil to do as he pleases. 

 

You're right Josh, I must've been a little over sensitive for some reason. My bad.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this is how I would fix the hardie die grinder with a metal debur tool $25.00 size 1/4 or 3/8 depending sit down & take you're time !!! I have done this it takes TIME but works if you have a ac/ox torch & know how to use it you can ruff out the sq then die grinder a good file is also needed and again LOTS of time & for me beer sup ! I have done this to 4 anvils so far -- my PW 110 has a 5/8 hardie hole ALL my tooling is 1" so I will take it out to 1" its on the welding table now to finish grind & fix hardie so tools fit on my PW 350 I welded in a sq tube in - top & bottom the hardie went from 1-1/4" to 1" I have done 4 anvils that way now & they need to be welded in good I pop the first sq out a month later I only welded the top face then PS -- ck for sq before you install sq tube MOST anvil hardie hole are @ some amount of angle the tube needs to be stright up & down / 90 degs from face plate STEVE'S Welding & Fab

 

BOT made this into one long sentence 

GLEN another update problem LOL 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peddinghaus anvils drop forged steel anvils. Up to 110lbs - 50kg they used to forge them out of one piece of tool steel. Above 110lbs - 50kg they forged them out of 2 parts

and then they were forge welded at the waiste (Original P.F.P. 1903-1930 period)
After WWII they went to arc welding them at the waist, because this is cheaper and faster. This is done by a skilled weldor, all of these anvils made of 2 parts were joint one at a time.
It's a precise and quality demand a machine can't do well enough yet, so a person does this.

Peddinghaus used to have problems with making the square hardy hole. These holes are punched and drifted (can be seen on the other Peddinghaus anvils I have).
And occasionally the punch (machine of course, not a man job) would break and replacing it was a tedious process.
Thus in the mean time they needed a replacement for the holes.

This is the result, a drilled hole with a shortly drifted square top section.
I used to own 3 Peddinghaus anvils with this feature 22lbs, 44lbs and 88lbs. The 88# I sold to a young ladd who is attending farrier school to become a farrier.
It was an ideal size for him and he wanted something good. That's what his teacher advised  him. And they're right.

Now some smiths have given me big grief over this hardy hole. Thinking it won't work and any other comment you can think of.
I simply don't understand how this can be said without even having experienced it.

Having the 22lbs and 44lbs still, I made hardy tools for them to take with me on demos. They work just as good as square holes.
The only thing is, you'll have to spend 10 minutes extra finalizing the shank and you're done. You won't see or feel the difference.

IMG_2491_zpsf22423d2.jpg
IMG_2495_zpsc3654629.jpg
IMG_2496_zps90619323.jpg
IMG_2499_zpsae0f8534.jpg

Needless to say these hardies need some clean up. They work fine just as a normal square hardy hole.
No fuss about it.

Today's Peddinghaus anvils hardy holes are drilled and broached square instead of punching and drifting like they used to.

My advice would be:

Don't ever touch the face of an anvil, the hard layer is only a few mm thick on any (most) anvil. To my recollection Rhino anvils and another brand or 2 completely make them out of air hardening steel.
Thus they're hard all the way through. These Peddinghaus anvils aren't. Solely the top portion of the face is heat treated like most other anvils.

Leave the hardy hole as it is and use it as it is. I have tried multiple ways of of getting the hole square, but it's not worth the time and effort at all.
The steel is a very tough type to work through. And you can forge perfectly without noticing the difference.
The only thing different is that little shank you spend 10 min max. on altering when you forge one.

I know both worlds and it's absolutely nothing to worry about.

Leave it as it is and enjoy forging on it and make a few hardy tools for it :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this