Eddie Mullins Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 This is something I have been a little curious about for some time. It kind of started when I became interested in forging and I discovered ABANA. ABANA, by its name would seem to be geared towards artists. That did not seem like the right fit for me, but I now understand ABANA is a resource for what I would consider the non artist craftsman as well. So I'm wondering if my perceptions is off. Maybe most blacksmiths view themselves as artists. There were a couple posts on another thread that raised this curosity for me again. The posts were in refernece to producing tongs. Sam Salvati, on 28 May 2013 - 6:16 PM, said: A craftsman can make 100 just alike or each as different as the next, an artist can make 100 all different. Sam Salvati, on 29 May 2013 - 5:47 PM, said: it takes a long time to become a craftsman. So - what defines a Craftsman or Artist, as it relates to Blacksmithing, and which you consider yourself? or maybe your both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I think you must be a top notch craftsman before you can elevate yourself. when you transcend your craft ...there is art. When people say "he's more than a............( fit your trade here)........... he's an artist", you must be doing O.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 The craftsman seeks perfection through practice of a craft or process. An artist may be a good craftsman but they primarily are concerned with conveying a thought concept or feeling. The best works are often a thoughtful union of the two. Sometimes the crafts-person transcends conventions and expectations of their discipline and becomes an artist. There are poor artists and sloppy crafts persons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 This topic Is like wiping your butt with a hoola-hoop -- There ain't no end to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share Posted May 31, 2013 This topic Is like wiping your butt with a hoola-hoop -- There ain't no end to it :lol: :lol: - well if nothing else it brought a smile to my face today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Art is the process of producing artifacts any special buzz about it is humans trying to categorize things. categorization is a human need of some sort, we all do it, take a look at how much store folk here place on manufacturer and age of their anvils. Some place more importance on make and age than function of tool and anvils. Craft and art are synonyms at some level an it's pretty easy to find artists who look down their noses at "mere" craft. Yeah, high end "artistes" who don't touch something so common as a tool let alone make things themselves. Oh heavens NOOOOOO! <loud shocked wailing sounds> I define art as Transcendent craft. But that's just MY categorization and is as meaningless a as any "art" presented that has an inkling of functional to it. Ewwwww! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 yup I am a craftsman and a artist... craftsman makes things nice,artist makes things that are original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I have done some work for some big deal people in the art world. My contact with these people has made me realize I can't do what they do and they can't do what I do. They pay me to do their work but It would never occur to me to make what they make. Very rich people shell out major cash for this stuff think six figures and up. I look at it as I am a tool in the hands of the artist and I expect to be well compensated and treated with respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Let's throw this into the mix as well......... :ph34r: :lol: ar·ti·san /ˈärtizən/ Noun A worker in a skilled trade, esp. one that involves making things by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 yesteryear your so right... :) i think the most fruitful situation of all is when crafts people and artists shows thoughtful respect to the other, and make an effort to understand the other working approach. it is too easy to be devisive but thats frustrating for everyone and not interesting :) i have never seen why there has to be a hard and fast divide - and i dont think we should not be obsessed with the "value" of each title, its impossible to measure.. we can be equally brilliant in either role (or both, if determined) timothy - your henry ford quote sums up the best and most profoundly powerful approach to art craft or any persuit !. one of my fave quotes, it is The Truth!! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I define art as Transcendent craft. But that's just MY categorization and is as meaningless a as any "art" presented that has an inkling of functional to it. Ewwwww! Frosty The Lucky. The Idea that ART is different from craft is distinctly modern. The best artists of all time were also excellent crafters. In modern parlance technicians. A master blacksmith is a master technician. If his vision transcends the ordinary traditions of the craft then he may be viewed as an artist. The pain I often feel is that the ill educated often confuse the trite with the artistic. Charlotte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 hey you all forgot to mention "the tradesman". craft, and art are all well and good, but the trade is where it fits together. sometimes as a tradesman, one has to put aside the art and craft side, and make it "right" :) production of parts for machinery, where they have to fit to a mm tolerance, there is no room for art, or individuality. it has to be "just so" maybe the tradesman has to be able to draw the line, and have the ability to swap between them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 the name "art" has been used to excuse some pretty horrible things over the years......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 through my years I have seen many of both. A craft 's man will make one piece with intention getting the most work done in a single heat. On the other hand an artist will ponder the project heat the metal hammer a little step back and look what the hammer has done ponder a little more reheat hammer a little more ponder some more and so on and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin W Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 "So - what defines a Craftsman or Artist". Should read WHO defines a Craftsman or Artist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Forgot where I heard this. Craft is stuff that get's used (weathervane, hinges, fire tools). Art is stuff you need to occasionally run a dustcloth over. I do both, and don't hold a grudge either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Long, long ago, in a forum far away..... Someone once described an encounter with an Art Teacher that made them take the candle holders off of their metal 3D sculpture with the phrase: "no, No, NO! True art serves no purpose!" That seems to be the mindset and trend for a lot of artists in a lot of different media. Like architects that win awards from other architects for making the most innovative, eye-catching, but totally unlivable spaces imaginable. Our state college system recognizes two distinct tracks for the same discipline, but the mindset behind each one is completely different. You can take Art Jewelry, or Professional Crafts Jewelry, usually not at the same school. Same with Sculpture. I dropped out of a college Art jewelry class after one day, because the instructor did not want us to make anything comfortably wearable, or identifiable from nature. Forget recreating anything from the Viking to Victorian ages. Only the latest, ugliest stuff from the SNAG magazines were to be emulated, and we could not touch or use the tools to make anything unless she approved the design first! Never mind that the most widely worn item of jewelry in the world is the wedding band. Horrors! Nothing that plebeian shall be made in my class! "Our rings shall be made to display at soirees, and should be made in such a way as to keep the hand from being able to put in a pocket, or be used to do anything other than hold a drink." Lady, the soirees that I attend usually involve campfires, camp chairs and Solo cups. Goodbye. I went back and took it after we hired an instructor with some common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 One feeds the other. The artisan answers a need. The artist reshapes the answer. The artisan adapts that shape to a need (decorating, embellishment is a need). The artist picks up from there ... and then ... There is a distinction surely. A separation is artificial. The world needs both. The world is made by both. They work one with the other, one from the other. Often enough they are the right and left hand of the same person. What advantage is there in separating the artist from the artisan, what can be gained? For whom is there an advantage? Not for the artist. Neither for the artisan. I'm an artist as I am always looking for the best shape to do the job and please the eye and integrate my object in the world of the client. I am an artisan as I strive to make that shape. And as an artisan, I'm allowed (who would stop me, on what grouds?) to modify the shape as I go along, as my hand shapes the matter. The artistic mind guides the hand and the hand ... The idea shapes the world and the world shapes the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 As a young farrier apprentice, I mentioned to my mentor, Al Kremen, that I had purchased an old book, "The Art of Horse-shoeing" by William Hunting. I asked Al whether he thought that horseshoeing was an art. He looked me in the eye and said, "Horseshoeing is an art, a craft, a science, and a trade!" Food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 The craftsman seeks perfection through practice of a craft or process. An artist may be a good craftsman but they primarily are concerned with conveying a thought concept or feeling. The best works are often a thoughtful union of the two. Sometimes the crafts-person transcends conventions and expectations of their discipline and becomes an artist. There are poor artists and sloppy crafts persons. Thoughtfully put. If we have to have a definition/distinction that would sum up the current notion as I understand it. the name "art" has been used to excuse some pretty horrible things over the years......... So has "craft"! Think wonky pots and machine planished (dimpled) copper sheet and a few million tonnes of soulless mangled twisted gobbed together ironwork seen in a catalogue near you. "So - what defines a Craftsman or Artist". Should read WHO defines a Craftsman or Artist Absolutely, it is subjective. Dick Quinnell (a well known blacksmith and egghead) was rather pleased with his epigram that "Craft was Art made with love". Forgot where I heard this. Craft is stuff that get's used (weathervane, hinges, fire tools). Art is stuff you need to occasionally run a dustcloth over. I do both, and don't hold a grudge either way. I have to disagree with that. Functional and non-functional is on a whole other level...it is all just words but you can obviously have something that has an aesthetic function! If you have two objects that function equally well, why would you use the ugly one? One feeds the other. The artisan answers a need. The artist reshapes the answer. The artisan adapts that shape to a need (decorating, embellishment is a need). The artist picks up from there ... and then ... There is a distinction surely. A separation is artificial. The world needs both. The world is made by both. They work one with the other, one from the other. Often enough they are the right and left hand of the same person. What advantage is there in separating the artist from the artisan, what can be gained? For whom is there an advantage? Not for the artist. Neither for the artisan. I'm an artist as I am always looking for the best shape to do the job and please the eye and integrate my object in the world of the client. I am an artisan as I strive to make that shape. And as an artisan, I'm allowed (who would stop me, on what grouds?) to modify the shape as I go along, as my hand shapes the matter. The artistic mind guides the hand and the hand ... The idea shapes the world and the world shapes the idea. I was a bit lost with your first and last paragraphs but the middle ones could me speaking! Bravo! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 A tradesman is there to do a job, get in and and out. Their goal or at least it should be is to use the least amount of effort, time and materials to do the job at hand. They need to meet the specifications and satisfy the customer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 A tradesman is there to do a job, get in and and out. Their goal or at least it should be is to use the least amount of effort, time and materials to do the job at hand. They need to meet the specifications and satisfy the customer. Agreed. That is when the craftsman lets esthetic decisions to someone else. It can also be the same guy who having designed something does the job with a minimum of effort, time and material. So, sometimes, in certain circumstances, the craftsman is what you seem to say he is, only preoccupied with effort, time and material. But he can also have other preoccupations, like esthetics, in succession or at the same time he figures out how to get in and get out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironwolfforgeca Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 SO shall we just lump all this together & call are self's craftartisan's :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 “He who works with his hands is a laborer. He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman. He who works with his hands and his head and his heart is an artist.” ― St. Francis of Assisi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 "Art is what artists do." - Art and Fear: Observations on the Perils (and Rewards) of Artmaking by David Bayles and Ted Orland. These guys say "art" is a verb. Everybody arts, some of us just art better than others on a regular basis. (Personally, I think some art stinks.) "Art is anything you can get away with." - The Medium Is The Massage by Marshall Mcluhan. This guy was a philosopher. I've not made up my mind on philosophers. Andy Warhol thought he was right. I've not made up my mind on Andy Warhol either. I've been told by educated folk that we have to ask "what is beauty." So I read a few papers by the folk who stick your head in a big magnetic donut & take pictures of your brain while you look at pictures. Their scientifically demonstrable observation is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (Most of us overlap. Study any culture's art to find the overlaps. Or you could go with what David Hume wrote in Of The Standard Of Taste - that good taste is something we can acquire through practice.) I've been told that art should have "emotion." I asked my wife (who has a doctorate degree in shrinking heads) what "emotion" is. She passed me a copy of Born to Be Good: The Science of a Meaningful Life by Dacher Keltner. Best summary I can give is that emotions are our reactions to things. (How's that for insight?) What I want to know is: What is the definition of "definition?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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