When is it appropriate to Forge Weld?

[George Geist]

Originally posted by Yves:

I feel I am highjacking this thread. I do not know how to start a new one with these quotes. Can the highly skilled and dedicated moderators do that? The topic would be "When is it appropriate to forge weld?" or "Do I have to forge weld?"

 

There you go Yves, have at it

 

 

[Timothy Miller]

It is appropriate to forge weld when ever the smith deems so.  It is mostly done when it is historically correct, fun or the quickest way to get the job done.  Once you get good at it its not that big of a deal to do it.  One should not build it up into some mystical thing or put it in a special box that only gets opened when planets align.  It should be a normal natural thing that happens in the course of a project when it makes sense.  If it never makes sense for you than you are missing a big part of what it is to be a blacksmith.

[Rich Hale]

It is your shop, your rules. Do your work in a manner you are good at.

Some buyers will appreciate blacksmith work made with forge and hammer. And others will seek something made the cheapest and easiest way they can find. Also consider that if you are good at forge welding you may be able to do some joints faster than if you tig, stick or mig weld them and grind or forge to hide the method.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings George,

 

Jims general rule for new students..   Keep trying after the third failure..  ITS MILLER TIME   Not the beer....   Every forge welding situation is different and preparation is the key...  Proper scarf ..... heat.... flux.....and timing...  I teach my students to do all the moves cold first before the attempt..  The hardest thing about forge welding is that after you have mastered it is explaining it to a new smith....

 

Keep forging

 

Jim

[John B]

Hi Yves, such a simple question, and Mr Timothy Miller put it simply as      "It is appropriate to forge weld when ever the smith deems so." and there you have it.

 

Appropriate being the key word, forge welding is but one weapon in the blacksmiths arsenal if I may put it that way.

 

As you become more experienced, you will gain the necessary skills and a feel for the work you are doing, and how it will look and perform in a given situation.

 

The bent bolt in the spanner which is what sparked this thread off is a good example of where a concealed, but mechanically sound weld can be used. And again the "correct" type of weld to be used is down to the skills, and tools available for the person doing the particular task.

 

In this instance, the item IMHO in times gone by, would not have been forge welded, rather it would have been brazed in situ, again a skill that can be done in the hearth.

 

Forge welding consists of uniting the pieces solidly, by forge welding you would lose the definition of the bolt head and the spanner's jaws which make this such a feature on the object.

 

 

In the previous thread, someone mentioned "cheating", cheating is the deliberate act of fraud, if you use the skills you have to produce the finished article, then you are on a learning curve, and your work will improve as you progress.

 

There is no right way to do things in blacksmithing, there should only be the safe way, if it works for you, then that is fine.

 

As to the quality of the finished work, that is apparent for all to see, and for them to judge, so long as you can live conscience free with what you are producing I see no problems, its down to personal standards, strive to get better, but to look for perfection, then you will not get there.

 

Another word about trying to imitate traditional methods, by and large (when you atain the skills) it is quicker and easier to finish, rather than trying to fabricate, weld and dress off to look as if it were done "in the fire"

 

Forge welds flow and are part of the charm of the ironwork, so can welds be, but please clean them up and remove unintentional spatter.

 

Here are some pictures (I know the site likes pictures) of some ironwork rescued from a skip, this was being replaced by "architect" designed items, containing bought in cages, welded on to bars etc, Unfortunatelly these were the only pieces that could be found, the rest being under rubble and discarded cement that had solidified around them.

 

           

 

It is by examining items like this we can establish what techniques were actually used, in this instance, what was surprising was that the pieces that were leaded, holding the panel into the riser were appear to be brazed on rather than tenoned, so appropriate methods were used in this situation, perhaps not those I would have used, but the makers thought them adequate, and after 100 years or so, thier decision proved to be acceptable.

 

[Dan C]

I think you're right about brazing as a better option in this situation.  Sometimes, at least for me, it's easy to forget all the tools that are at your disposal.  Here's a link to the initial thread.  http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/33332-giveaway-items/

[John B]

I think you're right about brazing as a better option in this situation.  Sometimes, at least for me, it's easy to forget all the tools that are at your disposal.  Here's a link to the initial thread.  http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/33332-giveaway-items/

 

Well if you think about it, my take would be that the welding on the back does not show, and so is a good method choice for that situation.

 

If you had brazed it, there is a strong possibility that the capillary action would allow the brass to be seen from the front on the finished article

 

Which then leads to the proposition it could be a feature, highlighting the bolt head  (working on the priniciple, "if it's a cock up, feature it", always a good get out clause in this business)

 

So as you can see, it is just proving there is no right or wrong way, its the makers choice, along with the skills and tools available to them.

[Frosty]

Oh I LOVE where this thread is going. I REALLY do. We're delving deeply into the philosophy of appropriate.

 

It doesn't matter how you do art so long as you don't misrepresent it. Arc weld, braze, forge weld, hire it out, doesn't matter so long as it's safe and isn't fraudulently represented.

 

When is diffusion welding appropriate on it's own merits? When nothing else will do of course. Arc weld a pattern weld billet? the beginning is easy, it's the folding and pattern manipulation that needs to be forge welded. How would someone fake pattern welded? Sintered powder is getting more common all the time. That's as easy to develop a pattern in as sand painting. And heck, sintering
IS diffusion welding so maybe it isn't really misrepresentation after all.

 

I really don't know, I tell folk what's up, show them my work and let them decide. It's more for me than the customer. Of course the mystique of hand forged iron is a big draw both for us and customers. Personally I like to play with fire and beat iron with hammer. That's no joke, it's the main reason I ply the craft. there's very little I do that a person can't buy somewhere and cheaper.

 

What we market are unique products, even if we've made thousands of a thing, every one is it's own thing, different in little ways a person raised on mass produced widgets can appreciate. Why do folk pay me $20.00 for a coat hook they can buy for $1.79 and hang a coat on? It's unique, looks cool and it's expensive. Bragging rights, I've said it before and it's as true now as before, we sell something only one person can have and charge premium prices because it's worth it to have a one of a kind. It's something you can brag about to your neighbors, friends, relatives and whoever holds still long enough. Expensive too? Oh even better!

 

Okay, so it's possible to develop products and a market if you don't fall into one of the many traps out there. Learning the processes used for thousands of years even though they've been  "replaced" by modern techniques adds to the mystique, humans need challenges. Our ancient ancestors figured these things out and perfected many to exquisite arts. A challenge to master these things gets under our skin, gets our backs up and if we were quitters we'd take up something else the first time we got a scale burn.

 

What's appropriate? Integrity, everything else follows.

 

End ramble.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dan C]

It really gets down to the artist's perception.  At my skill level the easiest thing is to do would be to use the arc welder, but as Frosty said you want things to be unusual and unique, and that is a selling point.  Yes, I like the sale and it funds my other hobbies, but then I could go back to doing tree work and probably make more if that was the only issue, this is way more fun!  When someone buys my work there's redemption there.  It says someone else likes what I've done and they like it enough to pay a price more than a similar mass produced object.  At my level, forge welding holds a mystique, as did arc welding back when I was first learning how.  Now I think of it as another tool in my tool box, hopefully someday I'll feel the same about forge welding.

 

Brazing the two pieces would be unique and I would want traces seen of the brass from the front.  As I have some brass rod left from another project I'm going to put it to good use.

 

btw, Beautiful scroll work up above, amazing that they were brazed.  Thanks for sharing!

 

Dan

[John B]

Thanks Dan, only the bases were brazed, the rest of the scrolls and leafs were forge welded on, Brazing would look good, and methods for that date back pre iron age, so I guess its pretty traditional.

 

I am sure you will master the forge welding, then you can pass on to other things, the one great thing about this craft is that you never get to know or do even a small part of the overall skills it consists of.

 

Good luck in your future blacksmithing development.

[yves]

Originally posted by Yves:

 

There you go Yves, have at it

Thank you George.

 

Little do I have to add. I do not forge weld. 

 

I have tried forge welding and will try again. Friends have written to me how to do it. I've read and hammered, and thought I had it at times and ... I run around them. I avoid them.  Like in avoiding failure! I made a few and I mean a few like in only a few. I ought to attempt one a day. I do not.  Sometime, Mark Aspery said that you are a forge welder when you have 1000 welds under your belt and that the ones you drop also count towards the total. I wont tell you where I am with the count.

 

I also remember Steve Sells (I think I'm right) saying a while ago that he did not understand the whole mystery around forge welding as it was done by the apprentice. From then on, It realy annoied me (of course it still does) not to be able to.

 

Now, if I was able to, I think I would be amongst those of you who think that forge welding, as is forging like Frosty has clearly put it, comes at a premium. If the client wants it, AND if the structure of what is being forged demands it, he must pay for it and I must be able to make it. Otherwise, it is quite justified to employ modern techniques. ... Or to run around the problem.

 

I know, I ought to drive to a master blacksmith's shop spend a few days and learn. It is part of the techniques of the trade and I feel I must be able to do it. Just waiting for money to drop and time to lenghten or slow down.

[Frank Turley]

In thinking about the rationale for forge welding, I always say, "A forge weld is forgeable whereas a modern day weld often breaks or cracks when forged."

 

I like the flow of two pieces when welded, as a branch to a stem. You obtain what I call a "vanishing point" at the join. That is more easily achieved with a forge weld that with a machine or gas weld.

 

Sometimes, forge welding cuts into your time, as in perhaps making a branding iron. Sometimes, it is as fast or faster than an electric weld.

 

I sense that there is some magic in blacksmithing. One aspect of this magic is forge welding. Another is the heat treatment of steel.

[SoCal Dave]

Well said Frank! 

[JNewman]

Before I had the big hammer I used to forge weld the reins on some steel mill tongs I used to make.    They  had 12" of rectangular reins which then transitioned to 30" of 1/2" round. Drawing out and swaging all that 1/2"roundl from the 1 1/4 round that I had to start with with a 50lb hammer would have taken a long time.  Arc welding the reins on was not an option as the tongs were made from 1045. 

 

Before I welded the reins on the first time I took some of the same material and practiced the weld a number of times and then tested the weld by cold bending it 180 degrees.  To do the same welds  with arc welding I would have had to V, weld with a special expensive rod,  Grind, and then normalize the weld. Even after that  I  don't think the weld would have been as strong and bend as smoothly  as the forge welds did,  there would have been a hard or soft spot in the reins. 

 

I watched a demo at Caniron III where Pete Hill and Shona Johnson of the UK where they forge welded 2 pieces of a very contemporary sculpture together.  The time it took them was minutes and the weld was done.  To arc weld the same piece would have taken longer.  It would have then required grinding. and then some light forging to blend out the grinding marks so the texture was the same where the parts were connected.  That demo changed the way I thought of forge welding,  I realized it could be a much faster method to achieve things in some circumstances.  

[Backwoods Blacksmith]

I smithed for 3 years before I learned to forge weld.  Until then I hesitated to call myself a blacksmith.  I forge weld whenever possiable and it is practical. I traveled and demoed at muzzleloading rendevous and had to forge weld.  Now in my own shop I forge weld for my own satisfaction.  Some things I have never been able to weld neatly.  Small leaf stems to branchs is one of them.  Break out the torch.  Solid bar to pipe or tubing.  Mig it. But do it nicely, go over it with the torch and smooth it out, heat it up and hammer it. It is all part of the process.  But, learn to forge weld.  It is a skill like any other and you can only improve with practice.  You won't get everyone, no one does.  But don't give up. Forge welding is part of being a blacksmith.

[JimsShip]

I fell into Blacksmithing while searching for a class on arc welding. (There were none near me, but the Blacksmithing course was)
That being said, the only welding I know how to do is forge, and truth be told I still need a lot of practice.
Joints I think look good break and some I think are horrible are still together in the scrap bucket.
Sometimes i feel i'd like to master everything there is to know about Blacksmithing and keep the skills and traditions alive, but then I find myself working an idea, and suddenly it becomes more important to me to complete that project in the best way i'm able. If that means having it welded by a friend, then that's what i'll do.

Like Frosty, I love working the fire and hammering, and the strange therapeutic cranking of the blower, but i'd still like to broaden my skill set to include all forms of metalwork, including arc welding.

Just out of curiosity, the original project for this conversation was welding a lag bolt into the closed end of a wrench. How would this be forge welded without crushing or misshaping the circular end of the wrench? I would think in this case arc welding would be the best choice for the sake of appearances.

[Quarry Dog]

   My forge welds almost always come out solid, but they always have a visible overlap, because I need some work on my scarfs.  I will, however, say that I've had the most success with the following method.  I start with a fresh fire, and alot of flux (I'm still trying to figure out how to efficiently apply it, as it always seems to stick to the spoon, or stick in the hole in the cap of the aluminum beer bottle).  I then watch, as the metal approaches welding heat, for the flux to start flowing again.  Once the flux flows, I gaze at the intended weld, looking for a subtle shift in the way that it flows that shows that the skin of the metal is flowing.  I crank one more good turn and then gently stop the blower, and wait about 10 seconds after I see this change.  I do this to burn out the oxygen and make sure that heating is uniform through the metal. I then pull the metal out, lay the weld together, and hit it with a hammer, and then I do the weld at least once more to make sure that it is solid.  I have not missed a weld or burnt the metal in a welding attempt since I've started doing them this way.  I guess that's not saying that much, given that the total is only about 20 welds since then.

   Looking into the fire would normally be bad for your eyesight, due to the extreme intensity of the incandescance of the white hot steel, but I use darkened z87.1 rated safety glasses, or I use oxy-acetylene welding goggles if I'm expecting to do more than 4 welds that day (I like to call 'em "Mad Bomber Goggles").  This takes visibly white hot light and filters it down to a bright orange or "dark" yellow that is alot easier on the eyes.  I used to get headaches when I would try to forge weld before, and that was when I was looking at the fire sparingly, which resulted in almost half of my weld attempts resulting in burnt metal.

 

As far as modern welding, I'm getting ready to take my 3/8" vertical certification for MIG here in a couple of weeks.  I'm having minor problems with undercut on my cover pass.  I haven't done stick welding on a regular basis in a very long time, so I guess I need to brush up on that.

[John B]

IJust out of curiosity, the original project for this conversation was welding a lag bolt into the closed end of a wrench. How would this be forge welded without crushing or misshaping the circular end of the wrench? I would think in this case arc welding would be the best choice for the sake of appearances.

 

Arc welding would be a choice,  TIG, MIG or braze, would also work, brazing is being favoured by the original maker as he would like to see the contraast of the brass and steel.

[Dan C]

You're right though, it did misshape the circular end of the wrench and in the end the forge weld didn't stick so I resorted to arc welding.  I think in this situation as John suggested, brazing would be the better option for reasons already mentioned and also because the metals are both unknowns.  This weekend I'll make another one and then post pics.

[ThomasPowers]

Forge welding was used to save time, effort and money.  No need to spend hours hammering down a bar to make a size transition, just weld the two different sizes together!  This has often been superseded by the triphammer especially as the "new steels" that took over in the late 19th century seemed harder to weld than the old wrought iron.  As for money---well even as late as the American Civil War high carbon steel could be 5-6 times more costly as wrought iron and so making an entire tool from HC was a costly business when a thin strip for a cutting edge could often do the job---and was replaceable as it wore out!

 

I find it's a skill well learned as it testifies to your skills if you are doing historical work---it just looks "right" and it often does speed things up.  Faking a forge weld often takes far longer than making a real one!  I will note that combo welds---usually tacking pieces together so they stay put when heating to forge welding temps is a handy thing too.