Making a Fleur De Lis

[Borntoolate]

I'm wanting to make a Fleur De Lis.  

 

Don't want one that is just cut out of sheet.  Some cutting ok though.  Preferable not cut "off" pieces.

Probably want to collar it together.

Looking for something that has some depth to it (thickness)

My forge welding still not to good so looking to avoid that but....

probably looking at something in the size range 6-8 inches tall.

 

Does anyone have any info on doing this.   What size stock to start with such that my lack of a power hammer doesn't turn this into major work.    Also, I could see some problems trying to get a single collar to hold three pieces together without some thought.

 

Ideas?

 

I did a Google search of IFI but did not find "plans".   Also searched youtube and several other sites but did not find what I was looking for.

 

There is kind of a hint at one way to do it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5QTpsSogKs

 

umm then there was this one.  Kind of incomplete but provides some ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AcnfOk2irA

 

Upper left here has and interesting approach for the top half.

http://yvesforge.blogspot.ca/2012/12/for-new-year.html

 

Perhaps there is an intersting application of a split cross or the split cross concept that would be cool?

[tantofolder]

While I have never made one myself,I will give my 2 cents.Considering lack of powwer hammer and size you mentioned,I would try a piece of regtangular stock, maybe 1/4 inch thick.Divide the short end into thirds then make two cuts long ways about 3/4 of the way down with a hacksaw.This will leave you with 3 fingers.Taper all three of them(one at a time) Curl the two outside ones over sideways and call it done.Hope that isn't completely confusing.

[Borntoolate]

nope not confusing.     I am thinking I might want to go thicker...   a little.   I do like the look of the collar.   Hmmm...  I can always add a collar to something that doesn't need it!  just for looks.  I also find it a little annoying at times to forge points and such on metal that is cut.    Access gets to be annoying and limiting.     Though the collar could also help cover up those areas that are the hardest to access with a cut....

 

Yeah, I am finicky.

[tantofolder]

To access each "finger" individually for tapering,simply heat the piece up and bend the other two down and out of your way. :)

[Chuck in Ms]

This is a quick Fluer De Lis that I use a lot for this type work. Not the best photo, but made in a few minutes. This one done cold out of 1/8 by 1/2 flat bar. The scrolls are 1/4 round so it stands out a little. I folded the center piece in half, flatten the tip about a inch then shape the bell around the horn on the anvil. The ends are brought together down through the center. The two sides are one piece as well, fold it in half, flatten, form the diamond around square stock then scroll the ends out. This one is brazed on the back side then filed flat.

Same idea could be used on much bigger stock in the forge. I know this is way off the normal split and forge method but another way of getting the effect. For the size you mentioned it looks good.

[Borntoolate]

Chuck?   No pic?  :)

We live off of pics on this site.

[Chuck in Ms]

Don't know what happened to it. I think its there now

[Borntoolate]

To access each "finger" individually for tapering,simply heat the piece up and bend the other two down and out of your way.

:)

 

Yeah, I still find it annoying.   Call me eccentric...  or silly whatever.    I guess I am always thinking that most things can be forged clean with great access and sequence plus joinery and creativity is everything.   When the work gets in it's own way it feels like there should be a better way.   But I get you.   Been there done that.

[Chuck in Ms]

Ok its up there but it is out of place for whatever reason

[Borntoolate]

Ok Chuck.   That is Cool!   Need to ponder.  Thanks!

[billyO]

I'd try taking 3/4" - 1" sq, make a blunt point, then neck down about 3/4" from the end with a guilotine tool or spring fullers to say, maybe 3/8" round, and then shape the center point.  Then flatten the area below the neck (on the diamond) and maybe use a cross pein to spread and move the material where you need to, chisel and shape as needed,  You may need to bend each wing 90 deg to work them.  

[scjohnson243]

Chuck - Love that piece you posted... Very cool design!

[ThomasPowers]

I prefer to hot cut to hacksaw; gives it more character.  I have forged a couple of curved chisels that make the cuts the start of the forging process 

[John B]

This is a quick method to make a Fleur de lys end on a 40mm x 6mm (11/2" x1/4") wide plate just using a straight hot cut a hammer and the anvil and possibly scrolling tongs if you have them.

 

For newbies, (and some notsanewbies like me,)

 

 Mark out first then using a cold chisel, line in the outline,

 

 

 

by doing this you have a solid location to place your hot cut in when at forging heat.

 

Hot cut the long side which then frees the centre and allows you to hot cut the pointed top.

 

Curl/scroll the sides equally, (these were done freehand as a training project, but a small scroll jig works well here and makes it easier to form them equally) Just knock the centre piece out of the way and curl them on the bick

 

In this picture you can also see how by slightly forging the sides at the base of the scrolling, it allows the form to flow more elegantly

 

 

The angle of the hot cut makes for an interesting finish without having to work them excessively. This is the finished project.

 

 

Alternatively (sorry cannot find pictures but will try to describe the process,

 

For a more outstanding/solid appearing fleur de lys, they can be made from flat bars, the centre of the fleur de lys bar having a forged spear point type end, and a fishtail spread on the base,

 

Neck in slightly on the centre portion on the flat of the bar, this allows the side scrolls to snuggle in and seat nicely

 

Then twist this centre portion so the top and bottom forged areas are at 90 degrees to the centre portion,

( I would use something like 25x12mm (1" x 1/2")approx 150mm (6") long to give me somewhere in the region of the sizes you are refering to)

 

Then forge two pieces for the side scrolls, 25 x 6 (1" x1/4") cut off at an appropriate length 

 

Forge 1 off right hand bevel scroll, with a spread end at the other end (C shape)

 

Forge 1 off left hand bevel scroll, with a spread end at the other end, (C shape)

 

Then twist the spread end on each scroll so they lie flat in the same plane as the bevel ends (again 1 with a left hand twist and one with a right hand twist.

 

Assemble them into the fleur de lys shape you desire and collar them.

 

To assist in collaring them, you can always drill through and pin them in place prior to collaring, you can use a straight or profiled collar.

 

This gives a free standing fleur de lys that can be mounted to a flat surface using rivets or a bolt.

 

And you don't need a power hammer to do these.

 

Have fun, and let's see pictures of your finished item(s)

[scjohnson243]

Awesome Example John! I cant wait to give this a try this weekend at the forge, Thanks for the pictures!!!

[Frosty]

Thank you John, very nice how to. Elegantly simple with excellent results. This is one for the mental tool kit for sure.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Bill Kight]

Awesome thread! This helped me win a contract yesterday.  I used 3/8 x 1/2. The center tip cooled to quickly to forge alone and kept breaking the center off. I ended up using the hot cut technique that John describes, but only 2 cuts to separate the three points.  I forged a taper with all three still together. Then I necked down just below the cuts as suggested(not enough). I had to upset the center to keep it from thinning out too much.  Now that I've done this I have some ideas I'm going to put in the fire to see if I can make it look even better, since I'm not 100% satisfied with the results yet. (will I ever be? probably not.) Happy forging!

[ThorsHammer82]

Correct my noviceness if I'm completely off base here, but with a lack of a power hammer, to get depth, wouldn't it be easiest to cup the pieces to allow you to use thinner material, but still get the depth desired?

[Frosty]

Correct my noviceness if I'm completely off base here, but with a lack of a power hammer, to get depth, wouldn't it be easiest to cup the pieces to allow you to use thinner material, but still get the depth desired?

 

You sure can. lots of elements were and are worked from sheet using stake repousse and chasing techniques and tools. For example of using light gauge, take a look at the acanthus and cala lilly pics and how tos. I know most of these are forged down but it's not necessary, you can start with sheet. No problem.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[John B]

Awesome thread! This helped me win a contract yesterday.  I used 3/8 x 1/2. The center tip cooled to quickly to forge alone and kept breaking the center off. I ended up using the hot cut technique that John describes, but only 2 cuts to separate the three points.  I forged a taper with all three still together. Then I necked down just below the cuts as suggested(not enough). I had to upset the center to keep it from thinning out too much.  Now that I've done this I have some ideas I'm going to put in the fire to see if I can make it look even better, since I'm not 100% satisfied with the results yet. (will I ever be? probably not.) Happy forging!

 

Good start Bill, once you get to grips with the technique is relatively quick and simple to do,

 

I think you would struggle on the 1/2" wide material at 3/8" thick, try it on a wider piece if you can, and the results would be far more  flowing,

 

Good first attempt.

[John B]

Correct my noviceness if I'm completely off base here, but with a lack of a power hammer, to get depth, wouldn't it be easiest to cup the pieces to allow you to use thinner material, but still get the depth desired?

 

Just a couple of points, IMHO in this illustration

 

If you want easiest, buy a pressing from any of the mass produced items suppliers, or oxy cut or plasma cut.

 

It is also usually quicker to forge them than to repousse them

 

You don't need a powerhammer to make these, for the split ones, up to 1/2" thick can be cut relatively easily with hot cut and elbow grease, getting the proportions right is the key, normally I would use 1/4" to 3/8" thick plate, 1.5" and over wide. The angle of the hot cut gives the chamfered look.

 

These pics shows the chamfered effect of using a hot cut,

 

the top end was a relatively shallow angled tool, almost a slitting chisel, not much of a chamfer.

 

 

The bottom end used a hot cut with a 45 degree bevel on its outer edge

 

 

And this one illustrates a 90 degree angle on the hot cut,

 

 

(made by a student on a course)

[Bill Kight]

Thanks John!  I agree that the material dimensions are not ideal.  It is the center of an ornamental door knocker and it will have 4 more split s scrolls surrounding this.  It all has to fit within approximately 3"x7" space. The L is a part of the frame.  I have to make two. I should have a go at forging a few more tomorrow. Will post more on what works and what doesn't.  Thanks again!

 

Bill

[Bill Kight]

I really like those sconce, John. I will definitely be working your technique on a wider material as well.

[vulcan_]

hi folks .. i am late coming to this party, but i wanted to mention that all of the images in this thread have fallen off of the site. There are broken links where the images used to be.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

Take your Plasticene, Play-Doh, Modeling Clay or whatever you use for figuring things out. Use a knife or dinner knife and figure out what you have to do to get what you are looking for.

Simple

Neil