Pulsepushthepopulace Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 (edited) Peace. Content removed. Content Assembled Materials; 168 lbs - No-Name (German Trenton) Soft/Thin top plate; Machining/Heat damage 10 lbs. – Linclon Wearsheild 15CrMn $81.63 (Airgas) 1 ct. tempril stick 300 degrees/F 1 ct. little blue bottle of propane- $7.80 ( 2pack) Home Depot) Abrasives; 3 flap disks, three grinder wheels, needle scaler, and knotted wire brush… (had these on hand) 1) Proper cleaning and welding preparation taken. All divits, blemishes, and torch cuts wer ground down to bare metal. 2) I started my preheat in a different manner, as the individual that decided to mill down the face of this anvil past the point of thin also decided to mill off one of the sides removing the Trenton trademark, and also taking about a ¼” x4”x12” of wrought iron meat with it… I had some spare 7018 laying around and figured why not build it back up??? Figured it would also aid me in my preheat… So I cleaned that area down to bare metal with the wire brush, and heated with the small propane tank till empty, which brought the side to what I would consider welding temp taking into account that part of the anvil wasn’t structurally important. Started laying 7018 beads… ***All the while keeping note of tempril stick marking atop the anvil plate *** After a fair number of passes the anvil face reached 300 degrees… Preheat, per instructions, wasn’t required except for HC steel (recommended for optimal results) 500F… 3) 10# Lincoln WEARSHEILD 15CrMn; 5/32 Welder Setting; DC+ @ 200 amps interpass temps @ 300 degrees F 2 layers yield 40-50 Rc. (work hardened) Before photos.... First layer Second Layer Finished Product Conclusion; Wearsheild 15CrMn is still soft after a great deal of peening (>1hr)... After over an hour Anvil face yields about %30-%50 rebound, yet the ball bearing dents the surface. Unless there is a better more efficient way to bring hardness closer to the 50Rc mark then I'm afraid that this rod is an insufficient method of repair. I would suggest it as a build up rod only, as it does weld extremely well, no worries on snuffing the arc, and it is tuff as snot... Grinding was laborious. All is not in vain, because I did know there was a chance that it would be too soft, so it now becomes the butter layer for my next route of repair. I've already cross checked the filler, and I think that the next write up involving this anvil will be a winner... Edited April 19, 2013 by Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Check with Lincoln, Miller, Hobart for their suggestion for a hard facing rod. These folks will jump at the chance to help you and most likely have been there before. The membership can also be of great help as they have reworked anvils and know what works for them on their anvil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I don't understand what is so difficult about doing a little research in this world of GOOGLE. From the Lincoln website: Top Features Provides a premium austenitic chromium manganese deposit Resists severe impact or gouging even in a single layer over carbon steel Used to join Hadfield manganese steel to itself or to carbon steel Excellent for build-up on carbon steel prior to chromium carbide hardfacing deposit with an electrode such as Wearshield® 60 Unlimited layers Typical Applications Crusher hammers Rebuilding and joining of austenitic Manganese plates and parts Earth moving equipment Welding Positions All, except vertical down Enuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 I honestly don't know why I attempt to contribute anything to this forum... All of you seem to know everything or can find it on GOOGLE... I'm done with the ignorance and insolence of neck-bearded keyboard jockeys... Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I honestly don't know why I attempt to contribute anything to this forum... All of you seem to know everything or can find it on GOOGLE... I'm done with the ignorance and insolence of neck-bearded keyboard jockeys... Enough said. Doc is not a neck bearded keyboard jockey he has something like 40 years of forging under his belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 Doc is not a neck bearded keyboard jockey he has something like 40 years of forging under his belt. I don't care if he was the first smith to touch the hot iron with a hammer. Does he really think I didn't do my research on the rod first??? This whole string of anvil repair threads is a collective group of us testing and comparing different methods of repair rumored and suggested by the forum. The end result is finding different "effective" methods, and dispelling rumored fixes... 15CrMn was rumored to be a decent repair method by 3 individuals throughout the IFI threads so far, and none of them have answered any of my emails asking how it's working out, hence the experimental thread... I don't appreciate someone acting like a smug nancy, quoting the manufacturer literature, and belittling my efforts. That's hardly a display of experience, wisdom, or professionalism that should be coming from someone thats supposedly a mentor of the trade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Many folks on here have a vast amount of years in the forging background . it does not matter if you are a youngster or an elder if you are not willing to do a bit of research on your own either on this site (it has a ton of information to read ) or on the net searching ( most of the time it will bring you to this site ) then you are not doing your part as a Smith should . acting like a mere child that calls others names and insults shows that you really have no interest in being or doing Smith work and are wasting the time of the Elders of this community with frivolous questions and remarks that is Childish and immature. Thus you will not get any help or answers to what you seek . as you appear to be a waist of time and effort to help since you have no desire to help your self . IMHO Best Regards Samuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 deleted by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 Many folks on here have a vast amount of years in the forging background . it does not matter if you are a youngster or an elder if you are not willing to do a bit of research on your own either on this site (it has a ton of information to read ) or on the net searching ( most of the time it will bring you to this site ) then you are not doing your part as a Smith should . acting like a mere child that calls others names and insults shows that you really have no interest in being or doing Smith work and are wasting the time of the Elders of this community with frivolous questions and remarks that is Childish and immature. Thus you will not get any help or answers to what you seek . as you appear to be a waist of time and effort to help since you have no desire to help your self . IMHO Best Regards Samuel I had no questions, I was presenting a piece of information for the good of the group. This rod is found throughout the forums as being a solution to the problem when in fact it is not. You're making an assumption that I'm helpless, and capitalizing on this chance situation to come off as long winded and supportive of the Smith... Please tell me how the informative presentation of information, which has been deleted by myself, could be of no use or help to the smithing community??? Your turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 I'm just waiting for twenty other people to follow in suit taking a side with a whimsical soap-box stance, telling me who I am and how I should act... Elders... What are we, Protestants? LOL? If you want this failed attempt, or any follow up information concerning the progress of this anvil restoration, please email me at sinepariforge@hotmail.com... I'm outta here... catch me elsewhere on NWBA... or other blacksmithing events in the Southeast... I have nothing more to contribute here. goodbye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Good Bye I will not entertain you any more . Be well and I wish you well in your search for Knowledge with in the Blacksmith community . Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Evers Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I don't understand what is so difficult about doing a little research in this world of GOOGLE. From the Lincoln website: Top Features Provides a premium austenitic chromium manganese deposit Resists severe impact or gouging even in a single layer over carbon steel Used to join Hadfield manganese steel to itself or to carbon steel Excellent for build-up on carbon steel prior to chromium carbide hardfacing deposit with an electrode such as Wearshield® 60 Unlimited layers Typical Applications Crusher hammers Rebuilding and joining of austenitic Manganese plates and parts Earth moving equipment Welding Positions All, except vertical down Enuff said A doctor friend of mine once said, he thought Phizer was a fine company, he prescribed a lot of their products, but he didn't spen a lot of time reading what they had to say about their own products. Same goes here. I'd rather get some user input than to just google the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Sam and Tim, Thanks for your support. I'll quote Sam here with my sentiments Good Bye I will not entertain you any more . Be well and I wish you well in your search for Knowledge with in the Blacksmith community . Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Greetings all, Patience and wisdom Some of the best things I have learned in the past 40 years of smithing I learned from my students.... We should all learn from each other in peace... Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Just a note here. This is one reason I fled the Braderton/Sarasota area over 20 yrs ago. Been chasing the arc for near 50 yrs smithing for less. Son when ya stop learning ya be daid. No elders are not protestants we have just been there and done that befor you were born. Did ya read it right then do it right? Or did ya just DO IT MY WAY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarry Dog Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I'm sorry if anyone disagrees with me on this, but I can see why Pulse was somewhat miffed by Doc's post. I don't understand what is so difficult about doing a little research in this world of GOOGLE. These words were probably meant as a very simple statement of observation, however over the internet a persons tone is lost and things can very easily be taken the wrong way. That being said, I can very easily see how this could translate to "Idiot kid didn't do his research." I would say by the fact that a ball bearing is denting the face of his anvil that he is having an impact resistance problem. It also seems that all of the literature points to his hypothesis being valid. Top Features Provides a premium austenitic chromium manganese deposit Resists severe impact or gouging even in a single layer over carbon steel Used to join Hadfield manganese steel to itself or to carbon steel Excellent for build-up on carbon steel prior to chromium carbide hardfacing deposit with an electrode such as Wearshield® 60 Unlimited layers The highlighted section supports the idea that what he's doing should work, which makes absolutely no sense and makes me really want to question why Doc even posted that. I do not however agree with Pulse's rather severe reaction to this statement. I say this knowing that I have to tendency to think A LOT while I type, as I type very, very slowly, and focusing on what I'm typing is like herding LolCatz fans, so feelings get toned down alot for me. I find it sad that this devolved into a e-peen contest and that no one poster beyond Glenn (Who appears to either be site staff or a moderator), and Stefflus (A bystander) introduced anything useful to this conversation, and furthermore seemed pick one side of the other and just add fuel to this equivalent to a kindergarten after school shouting match. I also find it sad to attack someone's place of birth, even if I did not care for the area myself. I've lived in many places that I did not like, and I never list individuals or local mindsets as the reason why, as bungholes can be found everywhere, and sometime we ourselves are that bunghole to those people, just by the fact that our values are incompatible with those of the local area. I was often told, in many different ways, that if you can't contribute in a positive way, shut it. If you've got a question, ask it. All of this being said, let's get back to the original topic. I hope I have not offended anyone further, and that the following will prove useful. I have a 1.1.12 PW in need of face and side repair. I'd think 7018 for the build up rod. What is a more suitable rod to use for the face though? I brought this question of hardfacing an anvil and the desired end result and uses to my father, a professional welder of 30+ years. He stated that manganese/chromium steel and electrodes are more about abrasion resistance and work hardening through minor deformation, than they are about resisting said deformation. He suggested that a good rod to use on top of the 7018 would have been a 11018 rod. I looked at Lincoln's site and they have Excalibur 11018M MR. It is stated in the literature that it meets AWS 11018 H4R standard, and is recommended for "Quenched and tempered steels, such as A514, A517 and A709" and "General fabrication of high strength steels." I believe an anvil would fall under both of these categories. Should that fail, he suggested either Rankin Ranite GX (I can only find the MSDS on their site), or talking to a company called Exergon, which I can't find on the internet and he will look in his rolodex for their number. Exergon apparrently has higher prices than average though, although their rod is extremely consistent and some of the strongest out there, by his experience. Can anyone confirm this advice? P.S. : I thought neck beards were on the back of the neck, after about a month with no haircut. Now I know they can veritably be on the front. Edit: A few more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockcrusher Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 If you have access to an old rod fridge you should be on the look out for any of the following rods, all of which have similar characteristics and should work well on an anvil face. Some of these are still readily available or can be further cross referenced depending on your local dealer. I recently priced MG 710 at around $23/lb...about as good as it gets. Ed. MG 710 Eutectic N6SH UTP AH-2 Chronatron 346 Certanium 215 Nassau Midas H12 X-ergon 710 Stoody 1105 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I have used MG 740 as was referenced by IFI member Junior Strasil in one of the blueprints with fairly good success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 So Doc was a little short maybe not as diplomatic as he should've been. How blacksmith of him. I've heard a LOT of complaints about trying to reface anvils and how rods don't live up to specs. I tend to be short with folk using hrd facing rod to reface anvils myself ad am learning to just not say anything. Turns out soome folk know how to use hard facing and are having good results. A little thin skinned Pushpull don't you think? Sure you presented some empirical info, my favorite kind. Your remarks about ball bearings denting it sounded like a complaint to me. why didn't it work harden? It hasn't been worked yet maybe? Put a planishing tool on an air hammer and spend a couple hours on the face and it'll harden up. It's softer than specs say because after preheat the heat affect zone rose above tempering temp for the rod and the great thermal mass of the body slowed the cooling so it's normalized. Frosty the Lucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I will second the vote for MG 710--just used 6 rods short of 10 lbs to reface a 99 lb HayBud ( all the steel from the hardy forward was missing ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarry Dog Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Cleetis :Ouch, I bet the anvil was glad for the bandaid. Frosty : So would that mean it would be a good idea to build up with the hard facing rod a good bit, let it cool off, go at it with the air hammer, and then grind it flat while being careful not to heat it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 On 5/1/2013 at 5:29 PM, Jerome Werth said: Cleetis :Ouch, I bet the anvil was glad for the bandaid. Frosty : So would that mean it would be a good idea to build up with the hard facing rod a good bit, let it cool off, go at it with the air hammer, and then grind it flat while being careful not to heat it up? NO. The rod being discussed work hardens. Pre heating the anvil and laying beads prevents uneccessary thermal shock but will cool from molten slowly enough to not harden as by quench. As stated in the rod specs it work hardens. This means it must be worked to harden, the easiest way I know to do this is with an air hammer and flat point. NO I do NOT recommend hard facing rod for anvil repair, it is designed specifically for abraisioin resistance though much is also intended for impact resistance. Build up rods and wire is designed for minimal deformation so hard facing laid over it won't spall off. It is impact resistant and much easier to grind smooth. Frosty the Lucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DVS Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Met this individual via the SBA conference. At the end of the event, the anvil was donated to Dauset Trails Nature Center. I guess the donation was a win-win, as it will see heavy use from the younger aspiring smiths, and there was an agreeance on dauset trails sending him progress reports. The restoration looked like it had promising qualities after the second part of the restoration process. That stoody rod had some good bounce to it. I don't really get how this thread regressed, but it seems like sharing information, even if its sharing bad information honestly, earns you a pretty snooty response... Seems like there are a few more threads discussing very indepth anvil repair methods, that are on their way to the bottom of the pile. If people are gonna put forth that much effort to share, whay are they being buried by anvil identification threads? Does the mods sticky important stuff or does really good information get lost in the sauce? That video is great. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 nothing is getting burrried, the posts are arrainged as to how you set your preferances, I have mine showing the newest post at the top of the page, but members can set up their order how they wish. we have over 300,000 posts here, they cant all be at the top. The regression was from one member that had a tantrum all over the forum, then attempted to delete or rewrite some posts to make a mess of things for others, very not cool, and so he was banned for his efforts,, because he resufed to comply with the terms of service here. IFI has many people from many countries and cultures, bad behaviour and personal attacks are not welcome here, most people learn to be polite and respectful to each other for the good of all the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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