Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down

[beth]

well said mr b - and have a good time at the show - look forward to seeing the photos , with or without marks
good point also from tom, of course we all learn a lot from some of the more experienced smiths, but equally the lesser able can teach sometimes. i have a few times been in the position of having known a better way to do something when in the company of an always older, more experienced, usaually male, and its quit bizar to me that they are not prepared to hear what im trying to suggest simply because they are confident i would not know any better..... now THOSE people could learn something at these times, even if its just the possibility that their attitude might be stood in their own way!

[John McPherson]

Egos get in the way of quality and even safety everywhere that there is a power differential. Marriages, companies, religions, the list goes on. A benign dictator is still a dictator.

Just listening to a show about how they tried to reduce infection rates in hospitals, but could not implement it because no one at the hospital could hear any suggestion from an underling as anything other than a challenge to their authority. No nurse would even dare say "Shouldn't you wash your hands first ?" for fear of reprimand.

Planes crash because pilots over-ride co-pilots due to seniority. You can be terminated on the spot if you complain about fire doors being chained shut because managers don't want employees sneaking out for smoke breaks.

And then there was New Coke.

Beth, wasn't it Oliver Cromwell who said " I beseech thee, in the bowels of Christ, pray consider that thou art wrong" ?

[beth]

wow john!! what a quote! i think it can be the achilles heel of some talented and knowledgable people, and gets in the way of good reciprochal teaching.. i think you can learn something from almost any situation, and its refreshing and exciting when the answer comes from the utterly unexpected :)

[peacock]

This has gotten way off topic, But here is my 2 cents
Most people learn by observation, there are a few who learn by experimentation.
And then there are those who actually touch the fire to see if it is really hot.

[Frank Turley]

This has gotten way off topic, But here is my 2 cents
Most people learn by observation, there are a few who learn by experimentation.
And then there are those who actually touch the fire to see if it is really hot.

Or, as my big sister used to say:
"Some people make it happen; some people watch it happen; and everybody else wonders what happened.

[peacock]

Frank: I think I really like your big sister. I seem to spend a lot of time around the latter group.

[beth]

on the touching the fire to see if its hot theme - i once saw with my own eyes, a guy felling a tree with chainsaw, he'd made the first cut (he was learning...) and the saw was still in the wood chain still running, and he put his HAND round the side of the tree towards the end of the bar, to feel if it was through....! thats touching fire in some style.....

[beth]

ps frank - i like yr sister too!

[bigfootnampa]

Well I tried to advance my education by skimming through your blog Stewart. I was drawn to the pics of the leaves on the anvil but what I at first thought might be the dreaded HAMMER MARKS turned out to be just some random chisel marks instead. I think I am a bit more educated now though, so thanks for that!

[nc_cooter]

I entered the forging arena the hard way, through knife making. Made a lot of mistakes along the way. In Feb. 2008 I took a fall that crushed my clavicle and damaged my rotator cuff. My doctor, who was also a knife client of mine, said that my hammering days were over.
Well being a stubborn old Phart, I didn't give up. Having no insurance, I had to become my own physical therapist. I used a couple of new wrinkles on the standard techniques and gained about 80% use in 4 weeks. My doctor was amazed.
I still could not forge without considerable pain. I decided to try the Hofi method that I had read about on this forum. The short story is that it worked. I shortened and flattened the handles on all of my hammers and purchased a 3# Hofi hammer.
One of the ways I teach hammer control to students is have them drive 8P finish nails in a 2X4 with a 28oz ball peen hammer using the flat face. If the nail bends before it is fully seated, move to the next one.
I have a young student who has been with me for two summers. The last day this year, he was talking about having to drive all those nails last year. I asked him if he thought it helped him. His answer was " I guess so". I gave him 6 nails and told him to drive them with the round end of the hammer head. "No way", he said. "Way", says I. He bent the first one and proceeded to drive the 5 with no problems.
The bottom line is to find what works for you. Don't avoid trying something different.
Mike

[yesteryearforge]

I hope I didnt put the kibosh on this thread it was just getting interesting

[stuarthesmith]

At some point, it will be "thumbs down" for this thread, lol

[pkrankow]

What a thread. I hope it continues.

I am amused, I "drawfile" pushing away. I have tried pulling, it is about the same, but I always pick up the file to use it pushing.

I like the shorter, thinner, flat sided handles and the manner of Hofi's hammer techniques. I find a spokeshave superior to a draw knife to reshape a handle. This is mainly because the spokeshave has a depth setting.

I have compared the hammer marks on early projects to the hammer marks on later projects. (I only get forge time about once a month, so my advancement is slow) I have noticed that I leave smaller marks even with my limited practice. I feel this means in part that my efforts are moving the steel in a desirable manner.

I gained a whole lot of hammer control by "wasting" about 20 feet of 1/4 inch round practicing a "party trick" daily for a month. I only got red heat once, and it was one of my earlier tries...go figure. (the trick is to hammer on cold steel to heat it to yellow heat) Blue and steel-gray are easy.

I use a pair of tongs I made and cringe (yes, I cringe) when I pick them up to use because they have dimples and bumps all over - big ones. I also made a hot chisel from some a36 in about 5 minutes because I lost my good one. The levelness of the finish is remarkable by comparison, and is approaching the finish of some less expensive forged tools like a spud bar I own. I made the tongs last year and the chisel a few weeks ago.

I have to say that making smooth, near mark free surface is easier than making a surface that has a pleasing series of hammer marks in it. I still am in the "grind to intent" camp. I see no reason to not be, although I do strive for better finish from the forge. I really do not see a reason to grind more than necessary - it takes extra time and effort. Grinding or filing may be the best or only way to produce the correct finish for the project, so it would be foolish to not grind (or file) at all.

I do not get to the forge often enough, and have not been able to find time to attend any local organization for personal instruction. Discussions like this are very eye opening seeing how differently trained people have different opinions.

Phil

[Tom Allyn]

I am amused, I "drawfile" pushing away. I have tried pulling, it is about the same, but I always pick up the file to use it pushing.

I need to get a spoke shave.

But for shaping a wood handle I use a 7-1/2" angle grinder with either a 24 or 36 grit disc on it. Fast, fast, fast. It'll blow off white oak like nuthin'.

[stuarthesmith]

the master who taught me, when irked at me, used to deliberately leave hammer marks on the asparagus knives we forged, knowing full well that stuart had to grind these tools to final shape, especially the cutting edges. These blades were twice as tough to grind, trying to get the hammer marks out and produce a smooth finish. This especially gave me an appreciation for hammer mark free forgings! Thank you, Mr. Czub!

[stuarthesmith]

Egos get in the way of quality and even safety everywhere that there is a power differential. Marriages, companies, religions, the list goes on. A benign dictator is still a dictator.

Just listening to a show about how they tried to reduce infection rates in hospitals, but could not implement it because no one at the hospital could hear any suggestion from an underling as anything other than a challenge to their authority. No nurse would even dare say "Shouldn't you wash your hands first ?" for fear of reprimand.

Planes crash because pilots over-ride co-pilots due to seniority. You can be terminated on the spot if you complain about fire doors being chained shut because managers don't want employees sneaking out for smoke breaks.

And then there was New Coke.

Beth, wasn't it Oliver Cromwell who said " I beseech thee, in the bowels of Christ, pray consider that thou art wrong" ?

Your analogy is perfect. The old guild system, of which I am a beneficiary, was in fact an example of a "benign dictatorship". Every system has its positive and negative attributes. Sacrificing freedom for competency isn't all bad, my friend.

[stuarthesmith]

I hope I didnt put the kibosh on this thread it was just getting interesting

If you think THIS is interesting, dare I start talking about why the horn should be on the left hand side for right handed blacksmiths? lol!

[John B]

If you think THIS is interesting, dare I start talking about why the horn should be on the left hand side for right handed blacksmiths? lol!

Haven't we been there and discussed that already somewhere on the site?

[stuarthesmith]

yes it has, john, lol

[Ten Hammers]

I think the smart guy ( unless it's a gal) explores everyone elses use of the face of the anvil. Just my 5¢ worth.

[yesteryearforge]

I have an anvil of around 100 lbs that has the sides as swage blocks
You can flip it on either side and make bowls,ladles and other shapes .
Would probally come in handy for demos as you always have a swage block with you and handy.

[Tom Allyn]

If you think THIS is interesting, dare I start talking about why the horn should be on the left hand side for right handed blacksmiths? lol!

I missed that thread. Got link?

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I believe everyone missed that thread!

[Drewed]

If you think THIS is interesting, dare I start talking about why the horn should be on the left hand side for right handed blacksmiths? lol!

Yeah, do it. I would like to hear this. Mostly because I tend to forge with it to the right. Drives the other guy in my shop nuts as he keeps his horn to the left. I keep it to the right, so with one small slide of my right foot the metal is on the horn, slide the foot back and it is on the face. At least that is the theory. I tend to move all around the anvil

[Mainely,Bob]

For me personally I want to open doors rather than close them.
If I see something different I want to try it rather than dismiss it as wrong. If it works for the person doing it them it isn`t wrong for them and it may be an improvement for me too. I`ll never know unless I try. Only after I give something an honest go will I decide what is "right or wrong" and then I try to keep in mind that the right and wrong of it applies only to me.

Too many times to count I`ve had people tell me "You can`t do it that way" at a job and when asked why they reply "THIS is the the way WE do it and always have".
By the time I left that job and moved on to the next one of two things had happened;either I had learned a new technique I could apply at the next job or the people I was leaving behind had a new way of looking at things. Either way somebody tried something "new" and learned something in the process. Those shifts in thinking are the kind of things I enjoy about life and I have never found them by wrapping myself in the idea that "different is wrong". What is "right" for one application mat be "wrong" for the next project.For me flexibility in both thinking and action have been the keys to growth in my life.
After a few trips to the operating table you learn to be flexible,do things differently and in new ways. Age will do that for ya too.