Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down


Recommended Posts

Over many years of trying to improve my skills as a blacksmith, I have tried not to miss an opportunity to listen the handfuls of what I considered to be highly skilled blacksmiths and metal workers discuss, and sometime cuss about ways of accomplishing a specific process.

It has been made clear many times that the amply skilled members of I Forge Iron carry on this healthy and educational tradition of expressing “with vigor “and being in disagreement at times about THEIR philosophy of correct principles of
craftsmanship. - - -
I believe this his healthy for all of us, I know that always learn from the “Pro’s and Con’s” that are discussed here

Like a parrot, I will repeat what I have been told.
For over a half century, at times I have trained under the guidance of several
exceptionally skilled Blacksmiths and Repousse Artists.

Each one was very specific about how I was to stand at the anvil, hold my hammer, how to dress tools, heat treatment, and safety considerations, and many other specific elements of the crafts.

I considered each one of them to be independently acknowledged as a Highly Skilled Craftsman. Their finished product spoke volumes about what skills they must possess.

BUT; many times what one or two of them were teaching me was in total contradiction to what one or two others had taught me.
Yikes, what a predicament! - - No not really!

As I grew older I learned that I had to be responsible for myself and decide
“What Was Productive For ME”! I realized that all of them were correct to some degree, but only in certain stages or applications of use as I used them.
For someone else I am sure they found something quite different!

An example would be the dreaded dilemma of where to place the thumb while hammering.
I can say that a world Champion Ferrier associate of mine would say that if anyone did not hold their thumb on the top of the hammer handle when forging, did not know what they were doing!
On the other hand I have had the total opposite expressed to me by “Top of the Latter” blacksmiths.
Early on I tried the thumb on the top of the handle. It did not work for me while doing heavy forging, but it works out very well for me when I am Planishing and doing Repousse!
Accuracy/Hammer Control is one of our skills that I believe sets us apart.

In the end, I have come to believe that “The Proof Is In The Pudding”.
If it works well for YOU, then do it. If it doesn’t work for you, then try something else.
I have come to the conclusion that only you really know what is effective and works well for yourself!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

having done silver work where files are your best friend, i like to use files, you got control and can make fine adjustment. it makes sense. i still have an angle grinder as a permanent attatchment to the end of my arm though it seems.... like ted said - horses for courses, there is no one correct way. nice one ted :) likewise the filing work tom, nice to learn how to use tools that are not plugged into the mains....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hammer control gets different when you do something stupid like I did years ago. Took the middle finger off my right hand with a circular saw attached to the back of a tractor. I also managed to cut all the tendons and halfway through the bone in my index finger. End result after half a dozen operations is that my middle finger is now missing all the way back to my wrist and my index finger tip is locked at a 45 degree angle, the middle joint is locked straight, and it bends at the knuckle (makes shooting interesting too!)

The only real grip I have is with ring finger and pinkie, with index supplying some support. I have real trouble with the hammer "twisting" as I strike a blow and I get tendonitis very quickly if I work with too heavy a hammer for too long. Might have to try the thumb on top technique to see if that will work for me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

blimey farmweld - thats a bad hand situation - fairplay to you for even trying to use the hammer - i m glad you have some degree of success. a friend of mine cut off best part of two fingers not so long ago on an electric planer its been pretty hard for him to use the hand, but he has found some ways round stuff, even manages his accordian still now!!! good luck with thumb on top :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom good start on that sharp pointy thing, I do hope it is for the KITCHEN and not a conan. Your anvil, very good radius on the corners. But I think you just didnt want to sand it TOO much. The face of the anvil cannot be too smooth and shiney! I see rust pits and dings that have now been transferred to your work. If you got a mirror finish on the face of your anvil face, the finishing of anything you forge can be mostly done by hammer and hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ted, I think this is also a matter of culture. The master who taught me was a GUILDSMAN. His technique was passed down, from generation to generation, for over five centuries. Being the beneficiary of that tradition, I have become part of that culture. I don't know if this is just or fair, but under that tradition, there were NO left-handed blacksmiths. Reason: No master would turn his anvil around to the other side to teach an apprentice, who's opinion meant NOTHING to the mentality of the accomplished practitioners of this craft under the guild system. On top of that, left handers, under that system, were considered "doing the devil's work"! I know that sounds superstitious, but when you are the boss, your word rules! The only "democracy" found under that system was through one's workmanship, through respect from fellow-craftsmen.
Let's not forget that under that system, ten and eleven year old boys were given over by their fathers as "free labor" to a master blacksmith for five years or so in order to learn this craft, which was considered a fair trade-off. Mr. Czub told me, through an interpreter, that if he disobeyed his father, while doing blacksmith work, he would have gone without supper, or far worse. When I apprenticed under him, I knew darn well that his power emminated from his knowledge of craft, and that his "whip hand" was to deny me the knowledge that I craved, had I disobeyed him or stimulated his wrath at me. It never came to that, because I liked this work so much, I would NEVER contradict or disobey him.
Americans are the most inventive people in the world, because of this cultural difference. I am not knocking the freedoms possessed by OUR culture. All I am saying is that I am a product, through working for Mr. Czub, of a different system or culture.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Farmweld---are you modifying your hammer handles to work with what you have got? The rectangular handles with rounded ends might help with the twisting. Does putting your index finger on the side of the handle with your thumb work---the handle now exiting where your middle finger used to be---again with a rectangular handle. Does wrapping the handle with leather or sports tape to fit your hand help. I crushed a pinkie once and have to do regular stretching and working of it to keep it able to curl around the hammer handle and out of trouble.

*WE* are BLACKSMITHS---that means we make and MODIFY tools to suit ourselves!

At a medieval event I once ran a fellow with *severe* birth defects through a smithing project: working out how he could use what he had to smith---tong reigns and long tongs he could hold between his arm stub and body, wrapping a hammer handle into his hand stub; me as the trained assistant, etc. Don't recall anyone ever being so happy about making a quite rough S hook. I didn't say "you can't because you could hurt yourself" I said "You want to do it? Lets figure a way out!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

throughout the history of blacksmithing smiths worked to produce products with no hammer marks, like it was made by a machine.
these days people want to see marks to be sure it was made by hand....go figure. I for one take it as a complement when people think i couldn't have made it by hand, ( no hammer marks ) thats what i strive for....thats what every smith should strive for, thats the ART of the blacksmith

Link to comment
Share on other sites

throughout the history of blacksmithing smiths worked to produce products with no hammer marks, like it was made by a machine. these days people want to see marks to be sure it was made by hand....go figure. I for one take it as a complement when people think i couldn't have made it by hand, ( no hammer marks ) thats what i strive for....thats what every smith should strive for, thats the ART of the blacksmith


It's not just me then !! (For ART read SKILL)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

well I am a hold a piece of paper kind of guy and find that i have no problem with hammer marks with this weak and non directional kind of hammer holding , the thumb on the side gives some control and allows for rebound . I do use a weight forward hammer that has been dressed to my own hammering disposition and can forge pretty much dent free .

I do not think forging dent free has anything to do with how you hold the hammer and a lot more to do with consistency of blow and how the hammer is dressed and how you overlap your blows.

the thing I notice with students is over-forcing the blow and pushing or punching the hammer into the anvil which aside from being a real wast of effort is a sure fire way to end up with tendon problems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"thats what every smith should strive for, thats the ART of the blacksmith"

Yours perhaps, I am QUITE proud of my "hammer marks" which are NOT random or accidental in the least. By your standard I might be more proud of a bent cold rolled rod than of my own hand forged creation! I am an artist who has worked with MANY media over the years and I LOVE textures... both color or visual textures and three dimensional textures. My hammer is quite skilled and very much under my control (I first learned forging as a jewelry metalsmith). I make a great many "marks" as I hammer and they are quite calculated to produce the effects that I desire and admire. I would definitely tend to avoid work that seemed mechanized upon completion (in most cases). Hammer "CONTROL" means more than just machine like precision... a true artist in command of his medium makes artistic DECISIONS about what he does with his tools! To simply parrot the ethos of some teacher or coach is typical of the work of apprentices... NOT of the work of MASTER craftsmen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used thumb up consistently for many years, but in my late 60's with my hands getting arthritic (don't now if it was connected or not), I switched to thumb down for heavy hitting and often return to thumb up for control., I do like a longer slender rounded rectangle section hammer handle. Frank mentioned a divot under the thumb. I do use one on my rounding hammers that have symmetrical heads. If I can feel the divot, the round face is down.without looking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"thats what every smith should strive for, thats the ART of the blacksmith" Yours perhaps, I am QUITE proud of my "hammer marks" which are NOT random or accidental in the least. By your standard I might be more proud of a bent cold rolled rod than of my own hand forged creation! I am an artist who has worked with MANY media over the years and I LOVE textures... both color or visual textures and three dimensional textures. My hammer is quite skilled and very much under my control (I first learned forging as a jewelry metalsmith). I make a great many "marks" as I hammer and they are quite calculated to produce the effects that I desire and admire. I would definitely tend to avoid work that seemed mechanized upon completion (in most cases). Hammer "CONTROL" means more than just machine like precision... a true artist in command of his medium makes artistic DECISIONS about what he does with his tools! To simply parrot the ethos of some teacher or coach is typical of the work of apprentices... NOT of the work of MASTER craftsmen.


To throw a spanner in the works here,

You are talking ART with blacksmithing as a medium for fulfilling your objectives, yet you are agreeing with the principle of blacksmithing's hammer control.

Hammer control is vital, and to quantify that you should be able to produce flat smooth finishes, with no apparent hammer marks, (difficult to achieve with hammers with slightly domed faces, or incorrectly dressed faces), and Every blow of the hammer should be done with purpose.

Having said that, there is a time and place to embellish your work by using hammered marks purposly, in which case the finished look is intentional as opposed to the " it must have hammer marks to show it was made by a blacksmith" type of thinking.. Which is what you are saying if I understand you correctly

How many times do you see work that has obviously just been dinged with a hammer when the metal was cold, trying to be passed off as forged, I wouldn't think highly of the required hammer control on those pieces, and yet the makers may be quite proud of what they have produced

Pride has its own boundaries, and should be judged on your own standards, not by assuming what others tell you you should be proud of.

When instructing students I tell them "We can show you and give you the skills, What you choose to do with them, and how far you want to take them is up to the individual," We all have different standards, and satisfaction levels,

Then it is up to the student to use these skills to their own standards.

Some go on to make a profession of it, some go on to become champion blacksmiths, and others are just satisfied in taking pride in what they are making and endeavouring to improve.

I do know that if you try for perfection in this work you will probably never achieve it, what you have to do is to produce work to the standard you can live with, and that varies greatly from person to person.

One of the best things in training is watching students mature and to become better smiths than I am, most humbling and rewarding. On the other hand, the worst thing is just seeing students religiously copying what you do, and not comprehending how to do it, as you say parroting.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do any of y'all use flatters in your shop?


Yes, flatters are used and water on the anvil and tool also when required,

The thumb also goes where I can best use the grip for the blow and purpose with which the hammer is being used for at that particular moment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"thats what every smith should strive for, thats the ART of the blacksmith" Yours perhaps, I am QUITE proud of my "hammer marks" which are NOT random or accidental in the least. By your standard I might be more proud of a bent cold rolled rod than of my own hand forged creation! I am an artist who has worked with MANY media over the years and I LOVE textures... both color or visual textures and three dimensional textures. My hammer is quite skilled and very much under my control (I first learned forging as a jewelry metalsmith). I make a great many "marks" as I hammer and they are quite calculated to produce the effects that I desire and admire. I would definitely tend to avoid work that seemed mechanized upon completion (in most cases). Hammer "CONTROL" means more than just machine like precision... a true artist in command of his medium makes artistic DECISIONS about what he does with his tools! To simply parrot the ethos of some teacher or coach is typical of the work of apprentices... NOT of the work of MASTER craftsmen.
BRAVO very well said
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...