Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down

[yesteryearforge]

To throw a spanner in the works here, You are talking ART with blacksmithing as a medium for fulfilling your objectives, yet you are agreeing with the principle of blacksmithing's hammer control. Hammer control is vital, and to quantify that you should be able to produce flat smooth finishes, with no apparent hammer marks, (difficult to achieve with hammers with slightly domed faces, or incorrectly dressed faces), and Every blow of the hammer should be done with purpose. Having said that, there is a time and place to embellish your work by using hammered marks purposly, in which case the finished look is intentional as opposed to the " it must have hammer marks to show it was made by a blacksmith" type of thinking.. Which is what you are saying if I understand you correctly How many times do you see work that has obviously just been dinged with a hammer when the metal was cold, trying to be passed off as forged, I wouldn't think highly of the required hammer control on those pieces, and yet the makers may be quite proud of what they have produced Pride has its own boundaries, and should be judged on your own standards, not by assuming what others tell you you should be proud of. When instructing students I tell them "We can show you and give you the skills, What you choose to do with them, and how far you want to take them is up to the individual," We all have different standards, and satisfaction levels, Then it is up to the student to use these skills to their own standards. Some go on to make a profession of it, some go on to become champion blacksmiths, and others are just satisfied in taking pride in what they are making and endeavouring to improve. I do know that if you try for perfection in this work you will probably never achieve it, what you have to do is to produce work to the standard you can live with, and that varies greatly from person to person. One of the best things in training is watching students mature and to become better smiths than I am, most humbling and rewarding. On the other hand, the worst thing is just seeing students religiously copying what you do, and not comprehending how to do it, as you say parroting.

Said even better

[KYBOY]

This may seem silly to a lot of people but I did not realize it till I heard Jim Batson say it one time. He was demonstrating draw filing on a very rough bowie. The smaller the file the finer the teeth. When draw filing you can progressively go to smaller files the same as going to a finer grit sand paper. I was amazed at how fast he was able to put a nice finish on a bowie someone else had forged. For years I had files that people had given me or accumulated somehow. I bought a new file one time from a nice hardware store and could not believe what I had been missing out on.

Dont feel bad, I did the same thing. Buying used files and such...Had to learn the hard way..When i started buy good quaility new files in assorted cuts and sizes it was like the light bulb came on over my head..

[beth]

john and big foot - you said it better than i could really, i think we all know that before we can use marks competently and with any visual strength, we need to be able to make stuff mark free. then like you said big foot its about a choice, but you cant make a choice if you dont have a choice (due to lack of any control or skills ) although actually,random can be a very good thing on occasion.... but maybe not in this area.. also its not about showing its hand made - like someone else said, its fantastic when you cant believe someone used their hands to make something cos its so perfect, handmade can be with or without marks, its irrelevent - it is either handmade or its not.

[Old N Rusty]

Frank, I work alone,a flatter with a competent striker would be wonderful to have ..but the same could be said for many top tools, sets especially.

[ThomasPowers]

I finally bought a couple of hammers in my favorite style but 1/2 the weight because a lot of my students were claiming that it was my hammer that left fewer marks rather than my control of it. So I let them use the smaller version---they can't swing the 1500 gm one enough to demonstrate that even using the same style hammer they leave marks where they shouldn't!



Surface texture should be what's right for the piece and so a controlled and *chosen* item not a random item.

However in earlier times the "hammered look" didn't seem to be appreciated while a smooth flat look did. Look at medieval jewelry for example or 18th century tools and of course swords and armour at any period where the better the quality the smoother the finish!

People tend to ascribe crudeness to items made in earlier times; but this is often NOT the case in things like furniture, ironwork, jewelry, etc. (I have a friend who was reproducing Sutton Hoo items using laser engraving as the only method that was cost effective in *modern* times!) The linens used for ancient egyptian mummy wrappings tend to be far finner than the best grade ones you can get today.

[Larry H]

Hammer marks as texture are one thing, but can any of you "cyber smiths " actually produce a "clean " piece of work ?
Hammer marks are the " I can live with that " mentality of many modern day smiths who have never seen real masters at work.
john B..... i'm taken aback at your back and forth, wishy, washy stance. You are a real smith.... be firm in the minimum standard.......... If you can forge a clean piece ....and choose to leave marks,.. thats one thing. But if you leave marks because you have no other choice, and then justify it by claiming "I meant to do that " Who are you fooling ?

[John B]

Hammer marks as texture are one thing, but can any of you "cyber smiths " actually produce a "clean " piece of work ?
Hammer marks are the " I can live with that " mentality of many modern day smiths who have never seen real masters at work.
john B..... i'm taken aback at your back and forth, wishy, washy stance. You are a real smith.... be firm in the minimum standard.......... If you can forge a clean piece ....and choose to leave marks,.. thats one thing. But if you leave marks because you have no other choice, and then justify it by claiming "I meant to do that " Who are you fooling ?

So long as it is not me, I can live with that, and I don't have to justify myself to anyone Thank you.

You set your own standards, and I know mine. I would like my students to exceed them, but don't demand it.

[Larry H]

And are your standards " old school ? " of course they are ! ! ( aren't they ? )

[beth]

smithy i think we're all cool with having the skill enough to leave no marks - its something for everyone to aspire to - but we dont always have to choose to work in this style just cos we can and just cos the old school says so? that doesnt mean you john! you only ever offer your opinion/advice and then leave it be, old school or otherwise, and THAT is how to teach somebody well in my humble oppinion :)

[John B]

And are your standards " old school ? " of course they are ! ! ( aren't they ? )

Not necessarily, they are my standards, I have to do what I consider to be a proper job, and if I am not satisfied with it, it does not leave my shop, and also if I feel my client is not happy with a piece, they are not permitted to have it. Period!

[Larry H]

"Nuff said " , our standards are our own. So who are we to give advice ? If each one has his own standard, why do we think someone else has more or less quality work ? To each his own . So who is to judge the mark of the Master ? , No one..... according to you....... we are all master smiths,...because we have our own standards.......is it left to each smith to tout his own skills ? Where would the trade be today if everyone with a hammer and a fire was a blacksmith ? Oh wait ,....they are, because we each have our own standards, so nobody is better than anyone else, welcome to he world of mediocrity .

[John B]

"
so nobody is better than anyone else, welcome to he world of mediocrity .

Don't be silly, of course we are all not master smiths, and most of us will never be worthy of the title.,and as for mediocrity, Isn't that equality ?

Master/ expert Know a lot about a little or know a little about a lot, its not for me to say, I have an opinion, and it is mine, You have yours, they may not differ that much, but I am not one to pressure others to my way of thinking.

Your comment "Where would the trade be today if everyone with a hammer and a fire was a blacksmith ?" is probably why we are in the situation we are with the trade today, anyone can and does call themselves a blacksmith, and yes that irritates me, but how are you going to alter that, my way is to pass on the skills I was fortunate enough to be taught or learnt as I went.

There were standards laid down and these standards have been eroded over the years, mainly in the name of progress and art, and that is probably a major reason why todays blacksmiths don't have the respect of the communities that they used to have.

We are all equal, but the quality of work produced will vary, and each have their own opinion on what is good or poor work, we are all here to encourage others, and that in itself will erode standards, How often do you see a piece on this site that is in your opinion not up to standard, and yet there are comments praising the piece, do you jump in and put in your opinion, or just let it slide?

Apathy (or in this case sensitivity?) is the enemy of progress and of course some pieces are 'better' than others, what you have to be able to do is to justify that opinion, not just carp and criticise.

On a lighter note someone who purported and advertised themselves as a Master Blacksmith was once asked, "and when you can do it properly, will you then become a Mister Blacksmith ?"

The title has to be earned, not taken for granted, and there are guidelines and standards laid down to achieve that title. Even then you will find people who disagree with those who are awarded the title, and they can justify their claims.

[Larry H]

The " title " as you call it, is as you know, one that is uncomfortable to even an accomplished smith who feels there is much left to learn.
Good is the enemy of great.
So let us not debate
if good is good enough
there is no reason to update

( Excuse the bad poetry,..... no....wait ....its not bad.....how could it be...there is no right or wrong )

[Jeff Seelye]

Tom Allyn brings up an interesting point. Hammering blacksmith style or carpenter style. When I hit oak it is like a dead blow, not much bouncing back. When I hit hot steel I feel the rebound. Taking lessons from others has led me to realize when my thumb is up, I feel the shock up my arm from my thumb. With my thumb wrapped around the handle, my arm feels better at the end of the day. Thumbs up or thumbs down, to me could have been rephrased as "do you hammer like a blacksmith or a carpenter ?"

[stuarthesmith]

exactly correct, jeff!

[stuarthesmith]

smithy1,in post number 82 on this thread, eloquently summarizes my opinion on this matter. Don't hate the eagle who flies high, instead, develop your wings!

[yesteryearforge]

This is a GREAT thread
We have novices , Masters,hobbyiest, POSERS, teachers, Proffesionals, artist,artisans, antagonist, and cyber smiths calling others cyber smiths
Some people elevate themselves by trying to supress others.
Just remove all the smoke and mirrors and have at it.

[stuarthesmith]

this is about education, not elevation or suppression. look in the mirror if you take this personally.

[Old N Rusty]

can I be a POSER? see my profile? want a pic?

[stuarthesmith]

does your pic have hammermarks? hehehehehe

[yesteryearforge]

no photo required

[Tom Allyn]

....I make a great many "marks" as I hammer and they are quite calculated to produce the effects that I desire and admire. I would definitely tend to avoid work that seemed mechanized upon completion (in most cases).

That's great. But there is artistry in producing work that appears machine made, too. You say tom-ay-toe, I say tom-ah-toe.

[Tom Allyn]

On a lighter note someone who purported and advertised themselves as a Master Blacksmith was once asked, "and when you can do it properly, will you then become a Mister Blacksmith ?"

The title has to be earned, not taken for granted, and there are guidelines and standards laid down to achieve that title. Even then you will find people who disagree with those who are awarded the title, and they can justify their claims.

There is a local blacksmith and master bladesmith who's work I admire. Even though I know I'll never equal his smithing work, I see errors in his sharpening technique. I know that I could do better or show him how to do better. But because of my meager smithing skills I'll never be able to show him how to improve his sharpening skills. He wouldn't listen. That's a shame.

[John B]

There is a local blacksmith and master bladesmith who's work I admire. Even though I know I'll never equal his smithing work, I see errors in his sharpening technique. I know that I could do better or show him how to do better. But because of my meager smithing skills I'll never be able to show him how to improve his sharpening skills. He wouldn't listen. That's a shame.

Yes it is a shame Tom, his loss not yours, You could try a suggestion approach, you may be surprised,,,,or not,, if you don't try you won't know

[John B]

The " title " as you call it, is as you know, one that is uncomfortable to even an accomplished smith who feels there is much left to learn.
Good is the enemy of great.
So let us not debate
if good is good enough
there is no reason to update

( Excuse the bad poetry,..... no....wait ....its not bad.....how could it be...there is no right or wrong )

Here is a mor wothwhile mantra:

Good, better, best,

Never let it rest,

'Til your good gets better,

Then your better best.

It's 5.50am here and I'm off to the Dorset Show now, I'll try to grab some pictures of the work on show there. Have a nice day, and it's good debate,