macbruce Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Agreed.... :).....The funny thing is after this thread I always check to see on pics of the old masters where that gosh dang thumb is and it's a mixed bag...... Sorry Stu, Jury hung..... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 18, 2012 Author Share Posted September 18, 2012 Not hung at all, I did say in this thread that there are times one wraps your thumb around the handle, but for the MOST part, I use thumb atop.........so don't get "hung" up on this............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Not hung at all, I did say in this thread that there are times one wraps your thumb around the handle, but for the MOST part, I use thumb atop.........so don't get "hung" up on this............... So be it..... B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 this case has been thrown out, as it is a waste of the courts time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Being a beginner I have caught myself wanting to put my thumb on top of the handle, but I always change that when I catch it because it makes my already beat up joints hurt more. I do it for a sense of accuracy, but that's most likely a false sense, since I haven't aquired proper hammer technique yet.....same reason I continuously find myself reaching for too light of a hammer for the work I'm trying to do. As far as forging marks, the way I see it, back in the day when forging was the norm and machining wasn't around, I'd guess that what set blacksmiths apart was how clean their work was and they most likely wanted their work to look as machined as possible. In these days it's the opposite in my eyes, if you make something look so perfect, the average person doesn't even identify it as being hand forged. I could (and most likely am) way off point, but through my eyes I think there's times where I want my work to turn out very clean and precise and other times I want it to look a little rougher. Just my personal preference. If I want a "perfect" door pull for my barn I'll go buy a stamped out piece of junk from Lowes, but for me personally, I would much rather have one that "looks" hand forged in my eyes. So I guess what I'm saying is that I at times prefer work that may look rough and sloppy to others. I try to find a balance, which is tough at times. Being a perfectionist, an engineer, and an OCD posterchild I find myself in a constant self struggle with trying to get things too perfect at times and the result is usually disatisfaction with my work. Even if somebody compliments it and truely means it, if I'm not happy with the result it's junk in my eyes. Then on the flip side, I got into blacksmithing because I love the rustic look and feel of hand-forged work and hate the look of perfect stamped out parts and pieces. The two most frequent comments I've heard in my weekly classes from my instructors are "quit spending so much time trying to make it so absolutely perfect" and "hit the metal like you mean it"......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvilfolk Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Hi 01tundra, I liked your post very much, and I really identify with the duality you mentioned. However, I don't think I completely understood your stand on the following: As a perfectionist, you will strive for perfect work. As an artist, you'll strive for something that shouts out that it's been hand forged (therefore, not perfect). Do you feel that 1) a blacksmith should have the technical ability to forge to perfection and then decide his pieces should look otherwise, or rather that 2) a blacksmith's skill does not need to go that far if he does not wish to make perfect-looking pieces at the current time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Not everything we make is a Colonial door latch or gun lock. Where does deliberatly textured iron fit in here. Hammer textured bars and plates add another beautiful dimension to lots of work. Customers like it and request it. I'm sure not gonna tell em this doesn't fit in with MY agenda..... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01tundra Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Hi 01tundra, I liked your post very much, and I really identify with the duality you mentioned. However, I don't think I completely understood your stand on the following: As a perfectionist, you will strive for perfect work. As an artist, you'll strive for something that shouts out that it's been hand forged (therefore, not perfect). Do you feel that 1) a blacksmith should have the technical ability to forge to perfection and then decide his pieces should look otherwise, or rather that 2) a blacksmith's skill does not need to go that far if he does not wish to make perfect-looking pieces at the current time? Definitely number 1 in my opinion, at least that's my intent on my learning journey. At times I want work to be perfect and at times I hope to have a more rough finish, depending on the intended goal/application. I would much rather know how to, and have the ability to make a piece as clean as possible by hand, then if I choose to make something not so perfect, that should be easy to accomplish. I could be totally off base, but that's this posernewbiegreenhorn's take on it :D . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 18, 2012 Author Share Posted September 18, 2012 this case has been thrown out, as it is a waste of the courts time a perfectionist in forging, I am also a perfectionist in spelling. The court's time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 18, 2012 Author Share Posted September 18, 2012 Not everything we make is a Colonial door latch or gun lock. Where does deliberatly textured iron fit in here. Hammer textured bars and plates add another beautiful dimension to lots of work. Customers like it and request it. I'm sure not gonna tell em this doesn't fit in with MY agenda..... ;) My friend, that is a whole different bowl of cereal. Deliberate texturing should never be confused with stray hammermarks. I do see the need for deliberate texturing, especially if it fits in with the style of piece you are creating. I can even see the need, in special cases of using the pein end of a ball pein to create marks in flat forgings for effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I've never had any trouble knowing the difference but there are some who turn their noses up at an intentional ''rustic look''. I find no beauty in say 3/4'' sq bar balusters that have been been worked hard in a PH on the corners and flats with drawing dies ad nauseum but I've done plenty of em. That look seems to be fading I'm happy say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Yay to that!! FWIW, I do not consider hardware from the box stores to be anywhere near the epitome Or standard for perfect. ;) And isn't it all hammer texture, from a clean finish to deeply textured when done "with hammer in hand"? So we should make it clear, we are talking of stray hammermarks, no matter where yer thumb is. The only place your thumb should never be is between hammer and anvil. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 when upsetting the end of a bar, my thumb, regardless of how I am holding the hammer, is between the hammer and the anvil(my LEFT THUMB) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 .......................Forgive me Stu, It's turnrd into a tick........ :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 Notice, sir, what side the horn is on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 the thread is not 'horns left horns right' though..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Please show me where it is written in stone where your thumb should be during forging and what side the horn should be on while forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 This is true, John. The point of this is HAMMERMARKS. Easy to eliminate, in my opinion, based upon the way I was trained, if the thumb is atop. It is obvious that some folks can exercise hammer control with the thumb around the handle. The point is that thumbs atop make it easier..................to accomplish that control.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 an amusing, but pointless argument. :) everyones physiology is entirely different, the stress and strains on different parts of their body, length of limbs, mobility of joints, size of hand to hammer ratio, any number of variables, plus left handed ness and right handed, right brain dominated or left - the proof of good or bad technique is always, in the work :) injurys aside, if we are on about smoothness or other accomplishments in the work, then show us the work and then we can judge! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 gotta love you beth. ;) it is all about the amusement for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 :) woody yeah the amusement is a big factor :)!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Nobody will tackle that one Jeremy. If it WERE written in stone, someone like yourself or me would just forge a chisel and change the verbiage on the stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 an amusing, but pointless argument. :) everyones physiology is entirely different, the stress and strains on different parts of their body, length of limbs, mobility of joints, size of hand to hammer ratio, any number of variables, plus left handed ness and right handed, right brain dominated or left - the proof of good or bad technique is always, in the work :) injurys aside, if we are on about smoothness or other accomplishments in the work, then show us the work and then we can judge! :) A "pointless" discussion that is 175 posts long and counting.......................very interesting analysis! Nobody will tackle that one Jeremy. If it WERE written in stone, someone like yourself or me would just forge a chisel and change the verbiage on the stone. Let me assert what IS written in stone. When you are employed by someone who you are apprenticing under, and they are by acclaimation considered a master, it is their way or the highway. This is what folks don't seem to understand about the guild system of yore, of which I was a beneficiary. Dare to contradict the master, you had better have proven your genius to him, or be prepared to "hit the bricks", speaking of chisels and stones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 i like you rusty would like to hear words of wisdom re filing sharpening. an art/subject in its own right... Well I am not Rusty but I will reply. Well, maybe I'm a little rusty.... Whatever! In regard to sharpening which is probably getting even more off topic... what I have learned is that it is all about the burr. IF that makes no sense to you then you might probably stuggle with how to sharpen a tool. Unless you have a fancy sharpening system that takes care of the for you. I expect my wood chisels to be shave my arm hairs sharp. It's not hard to do or maintain once you get some things right. And you can do it faster by hand "of course!" than by fancy system. On the other hand maybe understanding the burr would help make your "system" faster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I am not now nor have I ever been employed by ANYONE in smithing. I do as I please, make my own mistakes and benefit from my experience. Am I King ? Of course not. Do I know everything ? Of course not. I will not be bound by opinion. My teachers were the men that made things happen in my youth along with many others in the past 24 years. Some were new guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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