pkrankow Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) I know ONE reason to use horn to the left for right handed forging is when you are coming slightly back on the anvil so the conic section presents a more flat surface and can prevent twist in the bar.http://en.wikipedia....i/Conic_section look at the top image, the left top portion of figure 2, compared to other positions shown in that image and you should see what I am saying, although this is a line and you will need to imagine a flat bar. Phil edit: some days I can't tell right from left... Edited September 9, 2011 by Phil Krankowski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 One thing we mention when bending on the horn, especially a flat bar "the easy way," is to hold it at a right angle to the outside "line" of the horn shape to help prevent twisting. This holds whether the horn is left or right. From your anvil position, you're looking at the far line (figure-ground relationship, if you're arty) of the anvil horn. When bending flats, you're relating to that line as best you can.The rationale is, If you hold the flat bar parallel to the anvil step, you may get some twisting, usually undesirable. This method may not be perfect, but it is helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I regret saying ''lets call the whole thing off'' in post#2 cause that was never gonna happen and besides what's wrong with a good scrap. I'm still a tomada. I don't have a 74 year old task master to ride herd on me, nor did I when I was trying to get a grip on this very complex art/craft. I'm sure the old boy knew exactly what it was all about and was a stern teacher, not a bad thing , just a little out dated.The other school of ''hard knocks''is trial and error. Now we're supposed to give kids praise and hugs even if they do it wrong,what' up with that! I answer only to myself as most of us do. My thumb will stay down unless I tape it up or I'm doing finishing blows and it finds it's way on top without me even thinking about it........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisG Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 um..... what if you don't have a thumb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 um..... what if you don't have a thumb? Then you can do no wrong...... B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 um..... what if you don't have a thumb? I would love to see your technique. I met a man who was a framing carpenter who lost his right thumb a few decades previous. He held his hammer between the fingers, and had a crushing grip with what he had of his hand. After a few minutes of watching him work you realized he was not "disabled" by this, and a few minutes of talking with him showed a "can do and will to do" attitude. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 I guess that without a thumb, you do the best you can, with what you have..............I once read about a one-armed pianist, who wrote compositions for other pianists who lost arms due to accidents and handicaps.take a good look at the german blacksmith in this video........and watch his thumb position on the hammer handle...............he too must have been trained by a European in a guild system!http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/24866-history-of-bellows-in-forges/page__pid__251499#entry251499 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted T Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Stewart thank you for posting this video. The blacksmith in the first video (the one you was talking about), moved so fast that I could not see for sure where his thumb was located when he was striking. But one thing for sure is that he seemed to have very long thumbs! I have never seen a billows set up like that, and I found it be very creative. That guy put everythging he had into forging. He could strike like a machine. I bet he would be a fearsome opponent in a UFC fight!! Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 ted, take a look at the MIDDLE of the video, not the beginning............his thumb is above the handle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I have been reading this thread on and off for a while now and looking at how I hold my hammers, sometimes with my thumb wrapped all the way around and sometimes not. I think it has more to do with the situation than anything else. Like Ted T. said if I'm doing some heavy hitting it tends to wrap all the way around and if I'm doing some chasing then it is more or less along the side of the handle. Now as to hammer marks and texture I can make a piece pretty much either way. There are two terms that are used to describe metalsmiths, black and white. Blacksmiths tended to do more utilitarian repairs, farm, industrial and the like. Whitesmiths tended to make things for use inside the home that required a much finer finish usually finished off with a file to remove all trace of the hammer work. It's not that one was more skilled than the other, it was more the destination of the finished product than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elemental Metal Creations Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I am pretty new at this and usually am thumbs down, I will try to remember to try thumbs up next time I get to do some forging. I am right handed and am more comfortable with the horn on the right, might have something to do with the fact that the only flat part on my 50# anvil is about 1 1/2 inch next to the horn and/or my bad vision. For hammer control practice after driving the nails through the board turn it over and drive them back out without bending them, this is much harder than driving them in straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Stewart thank you for posting this video. The blacksmith in the first video (the one you was talking about), moved so fast that I could not see for sure where his thumb was located when he was striking. But one thing for sure is that he seemed to have very long thumbs! I have never seen a billows set up like that, and I found it be very creative. That guy put everythging he had into forging. He could strike like a machine. I bet he would be a fearsome opponent in a UFC fight!! Thanks again! Just watch the second half of the video in which you can see his right hand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 :mellow: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 well, to each his/her own..........Fyodor Czub, who trained me, thought differently........and he was the culmination of a thousand years of blacksmithing heritage, all Old World.............and a product of the Guild System. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Agreed.... :).....The funny thing is after this thread I always check to see on pics of the old masters where that gosh dang thumb is and it's a mixed bag...... B)......I recently emailed Claire Yellin because I remember seeing an old film of Sam working at the anvil at an ABANA con. in NY in 1980, not so much for this thread but it's just a cool bit of history. She informed me that the Metropolitan Museum of Art owns all the rights and as far as I know they're just sitting on it, too bad.....I know I'd have a look you know where if I saw it again, THANKS Stewart..... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 There are times when I do not put my thumb atop the hammer handle........when swinging an 8 pound sledge, roughing out stuff, I wrap my thumb around the handle, but when FINISHING, or on lighter forgings, the thumb stays up top on my handles to remove hammer impressions or to gain fine control.......so on this subject, excuse the pun, there is no rule of ........thumb, lol Agreed.... :).....The funny thing is after this thread I always check to see on pics of the old masters where that gosh dang thumb is and it's a mixed bag...... B)......I recently emailed Claire Yellin because I remember seeing an old film of Sam working at the anvil at an ABANA con. in NY in 1980, not so much for this thread but it's just a cool bit of history. She informed me that the Metropolitan Museum of Art owns all the rights and as far as I know they're just sitting on it, too bad.....I know I'd have a look you know where if I saw it again, THANKS Stewart..... :lol: I have never met Claire Yellin, but I fondly remember Harvey Yellin, her dad. Harvey used to let me have the run of the place in West Philadelphia, allowing me to tour his museum whenever I had time.......he was a wonderful guy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I have never met Claire Yellin, but I fondly remember Harvey Yellin, her dad. Harvey used to let me have the run of the place in West Philadelphia, allowing me to tour his museum whenever I had time.......he was a wonderful guy! I met Harvey at that same conference and I'll always remember him waving me over to his table in the cafeteria when I was standing there looking around holding my tray looking like a frog blinking in the rain for someone I knew to sit with, sweet Guy................... Sure would be neat to be able to see Sam's film on youtube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 I saw a series of videos once of a modern collection of blacksmiths, including Pete Renzetti et al, at the Yellin Metal Works, fabricating a gate that had been stolen from the premises in West Philadelphia. When I used to visit the Museum, I remember that outside gate that the modern crew recreated. It is a darn shame what happened to that place. Today, low income housing sits on the old property where the Yellin Works used to be. I feel that I have had a gifted existance, having had the opportunity to recollect the good ol days. I also fondly remember seeing Al Walter, a German Master Blacksmith, who was the in-house maestro at the Bryn Athyn Cathedral, which is just outside Philadelphia. Largely unknown, his forge work, proudly displayed at that same cathedral, is comparable to any and all great blacksmiths who have graced the western hemisphere. As a boy, I used to watch him forge bolts for strap hinges with cow heads, horse heads, and all manner of iron beasts on those bolt heads. You should visit that place sometime. His work was stunning, and there for the viewing, free of charge. His gates are some of the greatest forgings ever done anywhere! He was also a master Monel forger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 thumbs up- kill him thumbs down- spare him. Hollywood got it wrong again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 macbruce, is that a pic of Francis Whitaker? Sure looks like him. If so, seems he learned from a Polish guy. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 macbruce, is that a pic of Francis Whitaker? Sure looks like him. If so, seems he learned from a Polish guy. ;) Yep,that be Francis working in his downtown Aspen smithy ''Mountain Forge'' which I had the pleasure of visiting other than the day I spent helping move the place, grunt! That pic is featured in ''The Blacksmiths Cookbook''..........It was on the RMS facebook page yesterday...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvilfolk Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I just read this entire topic and would like to offer my two cents. I was trained at Hereford's Rural Crafts Center, over 7 years ago, which I remember as being a somewhat traditional training wrapped around the college system. It was not, however, as traditional as the guild system (not hitting or withdrawing supper...). The views I developed from this training were that a blacksmith, like any other kind of craftsman or artist, should strive for perfection. Much like I expect any master painter to be able to achieve photo-realism, I believe any master blacksmith should have a mark-free hammer technique. Now, my skill is still rudimentary, but it breaks my heart to see any blacksmith not striving for perfection. If somebody told me they had a mark-free hammer technique, I would be honoured at the opportunity to learn from them. I would not say that it is false claim, that achieving the skill is impossible or that whatever inferior skill I have is enough. It is one thing to accept that real life forces you to make compromises that cause one's hammering not being mark-free. Deadlines for a professional blacksmith; other work or family for hobbyists all contribute to the difficulty of developing such a technique. It is another thing entirely to believe it is a useless skill; that to be a blacksmith all you need to do is heat metal up and bash it; or to, in any way, strive for anything less than perfection. This latter attitude breeds mediocrity, and furthermore causes the loss of knowledge and skill. I absolutely understand the necessity of accepting lesser skill and not going through years upon years of apprenticeship and journeymanship - especially with blacksmithing as a hobby - but I cannot fathom why one would or should stop striving to be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Anvilfolk....you are the first one to grab the gist of the post. If you ever make it to the states you are welcome to my shop. For centuries Blacksmiths have strived to produce mark free work, only to have modern people disappointed at the lack of imperfections, they don't believe it was hand made. With your attitude, I'm sure you will achieve these goals, and you deserve every opportunity to do so, I wish you all the best. Larry H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 We park in the same garage, Larry H! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarthesmith Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 check out this video..............the prosecution rests! http://www.iforgeiro...le/#entry296995The power of example is truly amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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