Nordic Vs. German Hammers

[gonefishin]

To start off with, I don't have any experience Blacksmithing thus far. Im in the process of ordering my equipment and so on. So a question I had that some may be able to help out with.

Www.Blacksmithsdepot.com/

It's a familiar site to all of you here im sure. Im wanting to be a Bladesmith (Knifes, bowies, etc.) and what I was stumped on, will this hammer work?

http://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/Templates/cart_templates/cart-detail.php?theLocation=/Resources/Products/Hammers/Nordic_hammers

I know it's a queer question since hammers are all based on personal preference, but will that hammer do the job with practice or is that one impractical for Bladesmithing?

It was between that one or the German one that they sell, but after speaking with the sales person the Nordic sounded a bit better.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I already ordered the Nordic so im hoping to hear that it is in fact possible to smith a full blade from just that hammer.

[rthibeau]

The Nordic hammer will work just fine, but from the looks of the pictures you'll have to dress the hammer face and blunt the peen somewhat. That all can be done easily on a belt sander. You want to remove any sharp edges and slightly crown both ends.

[gonefishin]

How would I go about crowning both ends? So basically sand off any sharp edges and flatten the back of the hammer (the little V part?

[ThomasPowers]

Having welded up damascus billets with a carpenter's claw hammer before I'll have to say that pretty much any hammer will work when *you* have the skills. There is a well know smith out there who welds up damascus billets with a wooden hammer.

Now as to what's best to start with: don't get too heavy a hammer and dress it so it has a smooth rocker in both directions of a Sq face and shallow hemisphere for a round face. If I was starting out a student I like them to use one that is soft---lot easier to dress a hammer than an anvil! (I have a french cross pein from the Lynch collection that went through a fire and fits the bill perfectly!)

My main hammer for my first decade or so smithing was one I picked up at a fleamarket for US$2.

[gonefishin]

How exactly would I dress it and everything, im not really sure what to do other than sand off sharp edges..
Im not great with blacksmith terminology yet.

[matto]

mark aspery's first book goes through the process of facing new hammer heads and handles to your liking.
with great step by step pictures. would be a great book to get your hands on. "Mastering the fundamentals of blacksmithing vol. one"

[gonefishin]

I love reading all I can but $60.00 is a bit much for me to spare, im already loosing quite a bit of cash on the equipment needed to start up. Thanks for the reference though man, later down the road I probably will end up looking into buying that book.

[David Einhorn]

How exactly would I dress it and everything, im not really sure what to do other than sand off sharp edges.. Im not great with blacksmith terminology yet.

Well... it is possible to write pages on this subject.

While it is possible to use any hammer including a rock to forge with, some hammer properties will make it easier to not leave miscellaneous marks, and be less fatiguing as well. The hammer that you have pointed to has flat ends *and* sharp corners that might discourage a beginner smith because of that tendency to leave stray marks all over the place. By having a bit of a convex or domed surface at each end and by rounding the edges a hammer becomes less likely to leave marks. How to go about correcting a hammer depends on your tools and skills available to you. I have seen highly skilled smiths who when they purchase a new hammer remove the hammer handles, then put the hammer heads in their forge and reshape the heads, re-harden and re-temper but that is likely a bit advanced for your situation. If you have access to a sander, especially a sander-grinder you could use that to reshape the heads and remove the flatness and sharp edges.

Personally I would advise against the choice of hammer you pointed to. If you have the cash I would highly recommend purchasing an approximately 3.3 pound cross-peen from Mr. Hofi through this web site by contacting Glenn the forum administrator. If that is not feasible for you I would humbly suggest either purchasing a Swedish cross-peen from an online supplier or a "blacksmith's" cross-peen from your local Sears store, or an old cross peen from a flea market, and having someone with a sander clean it up for you. I am fairly confident that a smith near you will help you clean up a hammer. I have even seen $5 flea market cross-peens that have faces that through use and intent already have domed faces and rounded edges.

If you lived near me, or if you have occasion to visit the Harley plant in York PA, you would be welcome to come over and try out a bunch of different hammers prior to making your purchase, and I would be happy to help you clean up the ends of any hammer that you might purchase. In my humble opinion trying out different hammers in someone's shop would be a really good idea. Clubs like the Blacksmith Guild of Central Maryland have a nice selection of hammers on hand that you could try out, even Hofi hammers. You might even add your approximate location within Illinois to your profile so folks can offer to help you out.

Now is the time for folks to chime in and tell me:
- that I am an idiot
- that they found a rock or hammer in a pile of junk or mud behind their house and it works fine
- that leaving marks in work is unavoidable and that I am delusional if I think otherwise
- that leaving marks are desirably decorative elements
- and that their rock on the end of a stick is not only less tiring to use than a Hofi hammer but just as ergonomic.

Enjoy. :D

[ThomasPowers]

WARNING Friday Rant ahead!

"I love reading all I can but $60.00 is a bit much for me to spare, im already loosing quite a bit of cash on the equipment needed to start up."

Have you not a local public library? Is not a library card free? March down there and ask about ILL (Inter Library Loan) where you can check out books from other libraries in the system that your local library doesn't have.

Shoot here in NM I can check out books from over 90 different libraries including university libraries! I can get books that are over $200 on the used market and I've had on book search for over 3 years without a bite for a 3 week loan for only $1 search charge and there is NOWHERE in Ill that is as remote as we are in NM! (Our county is 6,649 Sq Miles and the largest town in it is under 10,000 people. The entire county has about 1/2 the population of Granite City IL, next county over is 6,928 Sq Miles and has fewer people in it than just our town.)

Frankly I once put together a complete beginner's kit: Forge, Blower, Anvil, basic tools for under $25; you posting that you're spending over $30 for a hammer and then talk about not having money for books---the Horror! (OK I'm several steps beyond a bibliophile...but my wife's an enabler---she bought me the best book on the metallurgy of renaissance armour, over $300 *used* for my birthday one year..."The Knight and the Blastfurnace" )

While you are at it check out "The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith, The Pattern Welded Blade". Shoot look over all the suggested books so you will know which ones you should get and think about buying them used at abebooks.com

When starting out it is usually more important to get at it than to worry overly much about your tools. With experience will come the knowledge about what you need to upgrade first to make things easier on yourself.

[Bentiron1946]

Do you have a farm store near you? They still farm there don't they? Just go in and buy a cross peen hammer, about a two pounder and if you don't understand dressing a hammer please don't fret about it. Light the fire in the forge, get the metal hot and enjoy forging it. We will with kindness and understanding walk you through any questions or problems you have. That's what all of us old cranky pharts are here for.

[Bentiron1946]

OK, Since you don't want to buy a book but have a computer here is a link to a series of articles from the Arador Armour Library. The one I want you to read has to do with "Construction of a Sinking Hammer", now it takes you through step by step how to dress the face of the kind of hammer you want, it's got pictures, text, everything you need. http://www.arador.com/articles/index.html
You will need to go through a similar process for the peen which is not covered in this article. On my hammer I worked it down to about a 3/8" radius for the peen. Others have made the radius bigger or smaller as it is somewhat of a personal preference.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Powers beat me to it Libraries are alive and well, the internet hasn't killed them off yet. Since he covered that aspect already I will toss my .02 in.

Tools do not make a craftsman, it is the skill in using them that does. You do not need to run out and buy all new tools for this adventure. There are tons of used tools out there that are more than adequate for your purpose. An anvil can be just a piece of scrap metal such as a piece of a forklift tine, or just a lump of metal with enough weight to it. Ask around, and peruse the forum here (search topics) to get some advice before spending the farm on new toys. Some basic knowledge can save you some green, and some frustration.

[Johnny Woolsey]

As a student of this craft as well I would highly recommend taking Mr. Powers comments to heart.The knowledge of process will reveal to you the tools required for a given outcome.I believe in another thread Thomas recommended acquiring only the basic tools to start and as skills improve you will know what tools will aid you the most.This advice has has proven very useful to me personally.(Thanks Thomas)
Johnny

[ironstein]

Well put Thomas! i too was overly concerned with tools when i started a few months ago. When i went to see Brian Brazeal, he promptly plumbed me up when he told me a good hammer will do nothing if you don't have hammer control and practice under your belt. Get out in the forge and beat some steel to death, learn what works for you. In the beginning more beginners would be well served to meet with a blacksmith or an association meeting to get tips which will save many months of struggle.

[Bob S]

Do you have a farm store near you? They still farm there don't they? Just go in and buy a cross peen hammer, about a two pounder and if you don't understand dressing a hammer please don't fret about it. Light the fire in the forge, get the metal hot and enjoy forging it. We will with kindness and understanding walk you through any questions or problems you have. That's what all of us old cranky pharts are here for.

There's your answer. Go to the local hardware/farm store and buy a hammer that feels good in your hand. Probably $10 or less.

That's all you need to get started. Answers to your other questions re what to 'dress' will be revealed to you as you get some hammer time.

Enjoy.

Bob

[finn;-)]

Books are the next best thing to having someone show you what to do, how to do it, and why you should do it that way. Knowledge is power. The best thing to do is get hooked up with a local blacksmithing association and find some people with more knowledge and experience than you have to help you up. Guidance from someone who is skilled and a good teacher is priceless, books are often an excellent source of guidance, and if nothing else inspiration. To be honest when you are just beginning knowledge is more important than what tools you have available. Practice and perserverance can make up for a lot, you can teach yourself by just responding to how the hammerleaves marks on the steel, and adapt, but you don't need to reinvent the wheel, and there is no guarentee that you will get it right;-) How you hold the hammer, how you swing the hammer, and how you work ingeneral can cripple you, or you can forge into your 70's... READ all you can, visit and learn from all the smiths you can... (This is where a dose of humility and meekness can really pay off. After you get some skill, you will inevitably aquire with it a sense of your own importance and competency;-) If you decide someone has less skill and write them off, you will never learn anything from them, and they might have some gems of knowledge hidden in with the other stuff you don't respect. Be polite, be gracious and wait for something useful;-)

Christian
Husband
Father
Blacksmith
farrier
farmer
the rest just keeps getting in the way... ;-)

[finn;-)]

Quick advice on hammer control. It is ALWAYS easier to learn to do something right the first time, than it is to retrain yourself later when there is a problem. A small hammer to start with is safer, even if you work as a framer on a construction crew, blacksmithing is different and will strain different muscles. A heavier hammer will fatgiue you quicker, and you will be more likely to compensate and modify your hammer technique negatively. Start with small simple projects, out of smaller stock, that is suited to a smaller hammer. Let the hammer do the work! This sounds simple but is profound. You do not drive the hammer all the way to the steel and push the steel the direction you want it to go by sheer force of your muscle and will. You accelerate the hammer at your choosen target, and then lightly grasp the handle as the hammer makes contact and deforms the steel. A tight grip on the hammer is generally BAD, all of the shock of impact goes into your joints, which will eventually catch up with you. There are of course exceptions to this rule, but as a general rule it is sound. Lightly grasp the hammer. If you can read about, or be shown the Hofi ergonomic style of hammering it is a good style that will serve you well over the long run. There are other perfectly valid and useful styles, and recommending Hofi's style takes nothing away from them. I am trying to retrain myself to use the Hofi style more often, but teaching an old dog new tricks is hard;-) Any system that teaches you to take a light grip on the hammer and use the length of the stroke and the speed of the hammer head to good advantage is going to be fine. The amount of energy hiding in the hammer is described by KE=1/2M x V². So within reason and physical limits the mass of the hammer is half as important as how fast it is going when it hits the metal. You get more bang for your buck with swinging faster. As the size of stock you are working goes up, the weight of the hammer you are using must go up too. Blows from a small hammer will tend to penatrate less deeply than those of a heavier hammer, the heavier hammer having more momentium (mass x velocity). So peining a rivet is best done with a small hammer, and forging 4" round with a 500#< power hammer;-) For a beginner 1/2 stock is going to be heavy stock, and about as much as you want to try forging with a 2# hammer. There are no short cuts in life, if you are lucky you can find someone who can guide you to one of the shorter paths, but nobody get to the good stuff without a lot of hard work...

Christian
Husband
Father
Blacksmith
Farrier
Farmer
the rest just keeps getting in the way;-)

[Countryforge]

I use both type of hammers ( in reply to the original question) but I must recommend to the selection of a good hammer. When I started this venture money was tight so cheap hammers were purchased. As they slowly chipped, cracked and broke in half I started to purchase Peddinghouse hammers only. My best choice. Cheap chinese hammers are just not worth the money or the damage they cause.

[Mainely,Bob]

I dislike Nordic hammers.
I find they make my arm Thor.

Sorry,I just couldn`t resist.I really tried but...

Now back to our normally scheduled program. :P

[gonefishin]

Viking hammers, bound to tire us out
Well, I went to some yardsales and got some nice old blacksmithing hammers, already dressed of course. But I do still have that Nordic one on its way in the mail. Since Im probably going to be using these old hammers to start with, when I get the know how of everything, does the Nordic hammer still need to be dressed? Or can it be used without dressing it. Im talking someone with experience using that hammer, would they absolutely need to dress it?

[brian.pierson]

Without seeing it, It is hard to give a definitive answer. The best to say probably. Take a look when it gets to you. Sharp edges leave marks but maybe that is the look you are going for. Don't worry about us telling you what you "have" to do. Ignore any advice that does not click with your experience level yet but don't forget it either. One of these days it will suddenly click on "why" someone said something. We all had to take that first step down the road. Don't put off the trip.

As an old teacher once told me, "Don't try for perfection, it will just look machine made. It is the imperfect that fascinates a human's mind"



Brian

[JNewman]

I would carefully break any sharp corners on the hammer and then use it, you should also probably thin the handles out a little as well. If it requires more dressing your work will tell you. Just because a hammer is old and worn does not mean it is dressed properly. When you are starting out most of your hammer marks will be from you not the hammer. Personally I rarely use the pein these days, if I want to draw more quickly I use the edge of the anvil rather than the pein. After time if you find you are consistently marking things up with a particular part of the hammer face then it is time to modify it. After time you will decide what you like and don't like. Years ago I looked at the swedish style hammer in catologes and decided to myself that was the hammer I needed, I eventually was able to afford one bought it used it a few times and hated it. I still use it occasionally though because that pein is perfect to fit into tight places.

[JNewman]

I just looked at that nordic hammer and the pein is way too sharp for drawing but is perfect for texturing leaves etc. You can always grind more off but it is hard to add it back on.

[gonefishin]

That's what I was thinking, what would you say about the face of it though?

[fat pete]

as you progress you will know what you need ...its a feel for what you are doing ..... you will definately have many times you say i wish it would be like this...so you make it like that...you'll know if its too heavy or not heavy enuff..