Forge welding(bare with me guys)

[MetalMuncher]

Hello fellow smiths. I REALLY need help. I am STILL having trouble with my welds. I have done everything, but just let me describe what I do. I take a piece of re-bar(from a construction sight) bend it over, wire brush it, seal it as tight a possible. I then apply flux (borax)in the same heat becaus its at a red heat and wont form scale. I put it in the forge and already have about five inches of burning charcoal under it and about two on top. I use a shop vac and a side blown forge. I bring it up to heat as gently as i can and hit it. I have tried tapping, and even hitting it hard and still nothing. I have also tried at various heats.It some times looks like I have a weld, but when I tug on it with tongs, it sort of tears apart. I really need help. Some of you guys have given advice and I am very thank full. Are there any tips as to what the fire should look like? Or any rules of thumb? I am very greatful for any help!!! Thanks for your patience:)

[mike-hr]

I used a side-blown forge with coke for a 5-day class a few years ago. I was having lots of trouble forge welding in it until I figured out where the hot spot was. On the forge I used, the hot spot was directly above the blow pipe, I kept thinking it would be forward a bit.. another thing that helped was listening to the fire. If I couldn't hear a dull roar, i would take a straight poker and lift the bottom of the fire a bit, until I did. I can't comment on the charcoal use in a side blown forge, maybe somebody else can.. good luck!

[dablacksmith]

well first off i dont like rebar cause you dont know what steel it is ... but try nearly burning it up (till it starts to sparkle) then quickly bring to anvil and hit it with light blows all aceoss where the weld should be.heat reflux and do it again see if that holds..
good luck!

[Blacksmith Jim]

I would try with something other then rebar and see if you still have problems..

[MetalMuncher]

Directly above the pipe......sounds good. I also agree that rebar is not suitable...it was just the easiest thing to find. I will keep trying and play around till I get a weld(Thomas Edison style)I'm just a bit down in the mouth... Thanks guys!!!!

[Sam Falzone]

Directly above the pipe......sounds good. I also agree that rebar is not suitable...it was just the easiest thing to find. I will keep trying and play around till I get a weld(Thomas Edison style)I'm just a bit down in the mouth... Thanks guys!!!!

I know how you feel metalmuncher.
Last week I thought I had made a great weld - 7" in mild steel.
I heated, fluxed, heated again, tapped it into place - IT STUCK, I swear it stuck because I then spent an hour working that welded section to half it's starting thickness and shaped the front into a point and the thing stayed together!. It acted like a solid peice, I thought I had done it - I was so excited.

Took pictures, posted them on IFI all proud and excited. Some one mentioned a seam running down the weld. I thought this was just where the round bar I was using still made a bit of a valley where the two faces had fused together. But I decided to test the weld as suggested.

The next day I put the piece in my vice and pulled up on the tail end of the fold ... the thing came apart - I could actually feel it "unzip" (that's honestly what it felt like). I was so disappointed ... AND I FELT SO STUPID!!! Especially after posting those pictures and being so excited. I still feel stupid ... but I'm going to try again ... and again and again as often as it takes (except this time I'll keep my big mouth shut until I actually weld the sucker in place).

And trying again is really all we can do. But we're the lucky ones, we have all these experienced smiths that we can turn to and ask "... what did I do wrong ...?"

Don't be too down on yourself. We don't have the luxury of having a master blacksmith to be apprenticed to who would teach us this. We have to stumble about ourselves with a bit of guidance from our friends online. Keep hammering at it ... we'll both get it eventually, and we'll have learned the hardway all the ways it can go wrong. It's a longer journey, but it will make us better smiths in the long run.

Sam

[hill.josh]

its probably the rebar that your using.. have alot trouble with that as well

[CurlyGeorge]

Sam, don't even think that you are stupid. If you were stupid, you wouldn't be able to figure out problems even with help and advise. Just keep at it. That old sayin,"Practice Makes Perfect" and "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" is true. Don't get down on yourself. You will both get it right. I have confidence in both of you.

[Sam Falzone]

Thanks George.

[Glenn]

LB0007 Seeing colors

You need to *see* the color, then you can use that as an aim point for the next try (or weld). Use the same metal for all tries so you do not introduce variables. Keeping a notebook is sometimes helpful. When all else fails, move from the rebar to mild steel. If that fails, ask Mr. Lincoln or Mr. Miller for their blessing. (grin).

[ironrosefarms]

The first time I tried to forge weld it stuck perfectly, being young and all I got a bit of a big head. Well the next day I tried 30 times and failed each one of them. That was with an experienced smith in the shop and available. As I remember he laughed and hee hawed quite a bit... so sometimes it might be better with out quite so much "experience" in the shop with you!

It was about 2 months until I really got it down pat, now I've been off from the forge for a couple years and I have not tried to forge weld as I just don't want to deal with the frustration if it doesn't stick yet. I'll continue working on my hammer control and building my strength and stamina back up and when I'm feeling all big and confident, I'll let the forge welding bring me back down to size again... Good news is all it really takes is a bit of practice so it will come again, just as you'll get it too...

James

[MetalMuncher]

Thanks for all your help and encouragement guys.That exactly what it felt like Aeneas, it sort of "zipped" apart. I wasnt gonna give up, I was just feeling REALLY stupid hahahaha. But I feel better that its not just me. Thanks for you help!!!!! I'll post a pic when I get a weld.

[jake27081991]

i am having the same problem except for the part that i can get anything to stick at all....
i've tried every different heat from cherry red to sparkling white.....i tried with a 4# sledge and i tried with a 2 pound ball pein.....ive tried lots of borax and ive tried little borax....ive tried hitting it hard....and ive tried gently taping the xxx thing....nothing sticks....the steel is clean and there is no scale on it at all..... does borax ever go "off" or become bad when it is old...the stuff iam am using is a few years old...will that make a difference???

iam using a coke fire which is pretty clean....i only had to clean out the clinkers after about 3 hours of running...which i thought was pretty good by most standards..(is that a good way to measure how clean the fire is...if not...how else??)

is there any thing else you can do wrong or is it just a matter of persaverance? i tried about 80 times and got no where....i thought it had stuck once but then it turned out that it hadnt even thought about sticking at all.....

i am using very mild steel and have tried with reo before with no luck....

Edited October 13, 2008 by Mod08

[Dutchmancreek]

It's one thing to get the metal to welding heat and another to make the weld while the heat is still there. I think that this is one of the biggest reasons that welds don't take. Don't piddle around getting everything lined up on the anvil while the anvil is sucking the heat out. You only have a few seconds before the joint is too cold to weld properly. And don't hit too hard or use too big a hammer....you want to make the weld, not forge the joint down.

Do a dry run to get the movement right before you try the weld and when you do it for real be quick and positive. I really believe attitude counts. Fretting over it causes delays and delays let the steel cool.

For small parts (they cool real fast), I keep a small rail road track anvil and a piece of steel plate right on the forge so I don't even have to move the step and a half to the anvil. Timing is very important.

Steve

[Jmercier]

forge welding can be very frustrating, and very rewarding at the same time.

The project I was working on this weekend is a good example of both. Made some nice damascus, using a forging press, and got a nice billet. Took the billet home to my own workshop and got to work on it. I folded it over a chunk of 1095 to weld as a bit in the middle of a tomahawk head... and got a really xxxxx weld at the back of the hawk, ruining a good piece of damascus and many hours of work. Tried to get it to weld in the bad spot after that but ended up just mushing the metal in and not sticking anything together.

I'll finish up and keep this reject for myself, because it'll probably hold up to light use, but I wouldnt let it out of my shop now. Forge welding can be a real pain, and a real joy.

[Thomas Dean]

I will keep trying and play around till I get a weld(Thomas Edison style)I'm just a bit down in the mouth... Thanks guys!!!!

IIRC, it was Bob Patrick that tells folks at all his demos that it took him over a year of trying to make a forge weld hold before he 'stuck' one! He is probably the premier forge welder of our day. So don't give up!

[Finnr]

It took me about two years of trying until I felt confident making a forge weld. I still don't get 100% results but I can now pinpoint why I didn't get the weld to stick first time. It all comes down to practice.
Finnr

[devon blacksmith]

Hi the size of the fire can also affect a weld to small a fire and the steel can oxidize ,the rebar could also have a small range of heat that it will weld at .

[Frosty]

I don't forge weld often enough to be giving much advise but having the faces as clean as practical has served me well. I'll take a file to them if I can just before fluxing and closing the join.

The first time I got a weld I beat it to scrap I was so excited.

Oh the memories.

Frosty

[MetalMuncher]

Thanks again guys. I guess trying about 30 times isnt anything compare to a year of trying. Thanks again!!

[Woody]

my guess is you aren't getting it hot enough. The heat needs to soak completely thrun the metal, you are welding in the middle and heating from the outside. The outside may be up to welding temp but the middle may be a bit too cool to weld.

[divermike]

Just one more opinion, I have been watching several smiths much more accomplished than I, and they all do something I have not been doing. They have a long flux spoon, and put the metal into the fire, bring it to the color of the hot part of the fire, almost white, flux it while it is in the fire, thereby reducing the oxygen penetration, then when the metal flows, try kissing it with your hammer, before taking it to the dance and smacking the crap out of it. Also having a small metal surface right next to the forge, is a trick John Rausch taught me, less movement, quicker to the strike. I use a stake anvil set along side of the forge, one quick swoop to the plate and smack!! Only trial and error will get you where you are attempting to go. I watch very accomplished smiths blow forge welds when they have not done it for a while, so no worries.

[Mark Aspery]

Hello Metal muncher,
I think we have communicated before.

Flux does three things;
1.) Borax, being slightly basic, will dissolve the scale into a liquid form at a temperature lower than the scale usually becomes liquid at.
2.) It covers the metal like a glass preventing the 'super heated' free oxygen in the fire from formiong more scale
3.) it is a physiological crutch

It is quite possible to weld without flux. The problem is to heat the steel to a temperature at which the scale will become liquid. The scale needs to be in a liquid form so that it will exit the weld area, leaving two clean surfaces in close enough proximity that they will weld under your hammer blows.

The trick is to heat the bar to the point where the scale becomes liquid without burning the bar.

Flux is an easier way to go.

Do you live in a humid environment? I'm thinking that you probably do.

When you apply the Borax, does it flow into a nice glassy paste (dry borax) or does if look like its fizz-ing and make a grey colored ball when you apply it (wet borax). If it makes a ball, you might consider drying out your flux before using it.

If you want to go all out, spread it on a baking sheet and melt it in your kitchen oven. Then grind it into a salt like consistency.

If you are using re-bar, I am presuming that it has a higher carbon content that your local mild steel. As such, it should weld at a lower heat. If when you hit the bar it crumbles or falls apart, then you got it too hot.

Try this... With no expectation of welding, put the biggest re-bar that you have into the fire and slowly heat it free of flux. Turn the bar often as you do this to prevent any one spot from burning in the fire. Pull it out often and look at it...I mean really look at it!

At some point the surface of the bar will look wet. After a few seconds out of the fire, the wet surface will start to look crusty. It will not weld when it looks crusty.

If you never get to the wet looking stage, then I might suggest that you have too much air (O2) coming into the fire or your fire is not hot enough.

The same is true when you weld with flux. The bar must look wet or it will not weld. If you had a successful test with the 'heating the bar until the surface ran without flux, then you have a guide as to the upper welding limit of the steel.

Heat the bar to near that heat and apply your dry flux. The reason you flux at a near welding heat is that the flux will degrade in the forge environment.

Keep the bar moving in the fire. The more practice you get welding the less you will have to turn the bar.

It takes 1,000 trys to become a proficient forge welder and even then you can get stumped.

After each failure (and yes they will happen with amazing regularity) just knock off one unit of your 1,000 trys.

Light blows at first until you FEEL and HEAR the weld take and then start putting the spurs to it.

Don't bring the hammer from West Hell until you are sure of the weld.

Good luck and after the next try you will be down to 999 - we've all been there and all done our 1,000!

[Doug C]

Hello Metal muncher,

.......
Light blows at first until you FEEL and HEAR the weld take and then start putting the spurs to it.

Could you explain a little more on that... By the way, I just got your book in the mail this weekend. Well done. I can see it is back to the basics for me. Practice, practice, practice..

[Mark Aspery]

In the extreme, the bar will feel and sound like you are hitting solid putty when it is welding.

The bar will feel and sound a lot more like the normal forging sound when it isn't going to weld.

Get a 20 ft length of 3/8 bar and cut it into 2 foot sections. Bend all the ends over so that you have a 3/4 inch long staple at the ends. Don't try to weld until you have all the ends prep'ed - all 20 of them.

Now start to weld the ends together - one right after the other.

Start at a low temp and increase the temp with every end. Use flux.

At some point the bar ends will start to weld.

I hope that because you are doing so many in such a short period of time that you will feel and hear the difference when you start to weld.

Get a couple of welds under your belt and then slowly start to drop the temp until you start to fail at the weld. Then go back up in temp.

You'll know when the bars will weld after the first blow. You could almost close your eyes.