Sounds like you should be making test coupons to find the optimum ratio rather than using the entire forge as the test bed.

Frosty The Lucky.

I started to consider bentone or bentonite as a binder for the YSZ, but just learned that the composition of those are most likely detrimental to the YSZ.  I have been aware for some time that these coatings in engines are susceptible to calcium-magnesium-alumino silicate (CMAS) damage.  They melt into the coating and degrade it with their glassy melts, possibly even making new chemical compositions.  So, for the moment, I am still looking at phosphate binders or some commercially prepared binder, if it is not cost prohibitive.  I am open to suggestions that anyone may have.

Second Mr. Volcano arrived on Monday.

This is the first I've heard of that happening. Please keep us in the loop.

Frosty The Lucky.

FWIW Harbison-Walker seems to use calcium aluminate cement as the binder for their zircon castables.

Noted.  Thank you.

That's encouraging I might have to take a look at their site. I sure wish it were easier to navigate.

Thanks.

Frosty The Lucky.

Sadly their website is close to useless. You have to be a registered customer to see their TDSs. I've had decent luck searching through their 2005 refractory handbook (which briefly describes their products), and searching on Google for more info.

The Mr. Volcano site just now gave me access to most everything from a search. TDSs?

Frosty The Lucky.

Sorry, should have been clearer - "they" were Harbison-Walker/HWI. And TDS being the technical datasheets. They've got the safety sheets freely available, though.

Oh Yeah, HWI is a whole different kettle of fish, they're geared more to selling rail cars of product than normal person quantities. They play their proprietary info very close to the vest.

Frosty The Lucky.

My Mr Volcano Hero 2 just arrived! My question seems to fit in with this thread, but if you think this is better suited to a new thread I'm happy to do that. (I've read the guides but I'm still getting used to how things are done here.)

Plistix is proving to be hard to get my hands on, so I'm currently looking at using TabCast 94% Alumina (free shipping from Amazon!) to (1) create/cast a replacement for the bricks in the bed of the forge and (2) to use as a thinner surface wash for the whole inside (and I have some other things I'd like to cast depending on how much is left). 

This means I will still have the 3.5lbs of Satinite that came with the forge - I've seen some mixed results with it, and I'm just wondering if it is worth using in this build somehow or if I should find another use for it. 

So I guess my question here could go two directions - answers to either would be really helpful:

Do you see a place in my Volcano build where you would recommend I use the Satinite? (For example, as layer between the wool and TabCast.)

OR 

More generally speaking, what is the best use for my leftover Satanite?

I've only used Satanite on exterior facing surfaces of ceramic wool board because it is not recommended for flame faces); that was never a great deal of area in my early forges, and is much less in most forges, these days. So, you could consider the amount of Satinite that came with your forge as a lifetime supply. You will be much better off using Plistix 900, which you can order directly from IFI.

    As to using TabCast 94% Alumina; if this product is a castable hard refractory, it will work on as a slab of a forge floor, but not especially well. We recomend Kast-O-lite 30 hard castable refractory, becuase it is lite, insulating, and very resistant to cracking and peeling.

    Thin coatings on forge walls should be made of products designed for that use, including Plistix 900. We keep advising people to use these products, in order to avoid construction problems, and to get maximum efficiency out of their forges.

    One of the advantages of using the products that IFI sells is that they are designed for use in gas forges. The other advantage is that they are sold in small amounts, so as not to break your budget, and leave you with a bunch of left over supplies with a shelf life that runs out in a year or less! 

The one product you left out of your questions was was fumed silica rigidizer for your ceramic wool. If you want those fibers to last well, don't forget to use it. Also, rigidizing your forge's fiber insulation helps it to support the thin sealing coat of heat reflecting Plistix (or whatever) you use for a flame face.

The Mr. Volcano comes with the rigidizer.

When I had my first shop floor section cast the contractor had a joke about "Do you know when concrete starts cracking?"    "While it's still in the truck!"   Did a great job out here in the desert anyway,  20 years on.   I wanted strength over "pretty"  and he did right by me.   (I mentioned that I was fine using "leftovers" from other builds so most of my shop is done with thicker stronger "older" stuff----win win; they got to "clean up" and get paid and I have extra trusses, thicker sheetmetal and heavier roll up doors....)

My addition to that was very much in the same vein. 20'x60' total now.   (And I'd like to put a carport on it too...)

On 12/8/2022 at 12:38 PM, LeeJustice said:

The Mr. Volcano comes with the rigidizer.

You can also buy ITC-100 half-pint jars from them for $15, instead of near to $50 that everybody else wants for it; The more is see from these people the better I like them; and I liked them just fine in the beginning

I am still experimenting with the plistix and YSZ, no confirmed "amazing" results yet, unfortunately.

Plistix is one of many products which will produce about 70% heat reflection through re-emission; this is just average for any smooth high alumina based refractory surface. The difference between that and 90% re-emission is mostly of concern to maniacal enthusiasts, like me. However the visual difference (from orange to yellow incandescent interiors) is quite striking; this can also be quite misleading about practical differences. How well your forge will perform takes time and practice to know--not visual impressions. Hang in there, and do some work in your forge. If you're not satisfied with its performance, that is the time to reach harder for added performance. 

So, I think Mister Volcano has been established, by it purchasers, as the most promising small or medium size low budget forge out there. And since few people want to put excessive time or money into a new hobby, this forge gains outsize importance in introducing novices to metal work in general, and blacksmithing in particular.

Of course, some of us here on IFI suggest to novices that they can put off thinking about what kind of gas forge to buy, while they investigate the hobby by putting together a temporary charcoal forge. Whether this is good or bad advice seems irrelevant. By the time someone stumbles across this forum, it is pretty obvious that they have done a lot of thought about acquiring a gas forge. Even good advice is useless, if no one listens to it.

So, if we have got past Jingle Bells season, and New Years hangovers, the problem comes back to mind; just what to choose for that first forge? Therefore, isn't it time for you new customers to speak out, pro or con? The other newbies want to hear your evaluation.

 

Mikey98118, well written question!

My introduction to Mr. Volcano came from a childhood friend via a FB post.  It got me curious, as welding and fabrication was already a hobby I greatly enjoyed, forging felt like something I'd enjoy.  I also had the advantage of inheriting an 80 pound Vulcan anvil from my grandfather, and didn't know that my existing hammer selection already included blacksmithing hammers!

What made me decide to purchase a Mr. Volcano single burner?  Reviews stating that it was an unbelievable value for the price, that it would be darn near impossible to gather your own supplies and fabricate a propane forge for the same price, and more than a couple of YouTube reviews giving glowing praise.

In my experience with the forge, I'm happy.  I'm as green as they come with forging, only having forged six railroad spike knives of varying success, hammering out a railway screw spike into a machete, and attempting forge welding.

I get about 8-9 hours out of a 20 lb propane tank, and bought firebricks to trap in as much heat as possible.  Also fabricated my own stand (that's getting revised this weekend).  I've never touched another propane forge nor charcoal forge, so I have no experience to compare to other forges.  

Much like my first welder (Titanium Easy Flux 125), the Mr. Volcano was an inexpensive way to begin in the hobby with the bonus of getting better-than-average quality equipment.  

My first forge was a home made coal forge using a Champion hand crank blower. My second was an antique forge that had a clinker breaker. Then there was a long hiatus while I went through several careers until I retired. I built a forced air propane forge using a helium tank. I welded a 1/2” square bar to a length of 1-1/2” pipe and drilled a haphazard line of holes in it for a ribbon burner. One end of the pipe was capped and the other had the gas jet. I used a shop blower from Tractor Supply with a rheostat to control it. On the box with the rheostat pot I also had a switch that operated a solenoid that turned on the gas. It was a fail-safe that would shut off the gas when power was lost. Between the regulator and the rheostat I had excellent control. It was noisy, but I liked it. The problem was when the coating started to break down. I kept hitting it and making little breaks. I’d used all the coating I had in construction and kept forgetting to buy more. Instead, I started wearing dust masks while using it, then a half face respirator. At one point I thought this is silly, and dismantled it. I was using an induction forge by then (I need to get around to fixing that thing) and had built another coal forge.

The thing that sold me on the Mr. Volcano was the fact that the blanket they use is made of fibers that are a lot safer even if the coating breaks down. Of course they give you enough coating to repair it a few times and I’m not saying to not exercise caution and avoid breathing those fibers, but I feel better about the safety of this rig than the one I had. I bought the two burner and used part of the fire brick that came with it to make a plug for the rear burner.

I’ve welded cable a few times in it although I still prefer my coal forge for welding cable. Very rarely have I fired that second burner, but I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. 

Good to get your input, guys. It's only people like you that others will listen to about purchasing a forge, or any other tool. This is only natural, when hype is everywhere, and the unscrupulous make their livings by selling positive opinions of products. 

Thank you everyone for the information you have made available here.  It has been very helpful.  I bought the single-burner Mr. Volcano forge after reading the information here.  I brouhht the box up from the basement and started to put it together today.  Right now, the “wool” insulation is drying off.

I do have a question, though, about the satanite coating.  As I understand it, I can use the provided coating, most likely without issue, since I’m only smithing part-time.  I can also put on a “wash” of Plistex (or similar) over the satanite.  My question is: could the satanite cement be replaced by a refractory board?  If so, would that need to be coated as well?

I saw another another gas forge, box-shaped instead of the pentagon, and it uses the soft “wool” and a solid board.  I’m not sure if the board is coated with anything.  It also has some sort of ceramic “shelf” on the floor of the forge.  This got me thinking and doing research… which lead me to questions.

Thanks in advance, everyone!

If you want refractory board coated, you must do it yourself, And what would your use? Plistix 900 

I'm a BIG fan of refractory board; that doesn't mean they are the best answer to everything. So, why do so many commercial forges use it? Those forges must be shipped. Board travels well. If you want to sell a forge for lots and lots of money, then it must be turn-key ready.

Bottom line; finish the forge interior with Plistix.

Thanks for the reply, Mike!  I’m going to look into getting some Plistix 900 now.  I’m also going to continue researching refractory board.

 

BXI Ceramic Fiber Thermal Insulation Board(2732F) - 12'' X 8'' X 0.8'' are available through Amazon.com for $19; they are use rated at about four hundred degrees higher than most refractory boards.