Mikey98118 Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 So I was running down further information on Plistix 900, when I stumbled over an instructional video on another blacksmith site. The guy'a ideas were half wrong, although he had a couple of interesting ideas on how gas forges work. Anyway, he happened to be using a Mr. Volcano forge for his demo, and while he was prattling on, he put it through it's paces. I was quite impressed. In conclusion, they appear to be the best built and best running forge out there at the low end of the price range. I would recommend them to anyone who wants to test the waters, before plunging into the deep end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 Yea, looks likes it doesn’t sucks. Looks like they read forges 101, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 Well, they certainly read burners 101 Not that it's an exact match; people have their own twist on things. Whatever works is good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 Yeah, Mr. Volcano developers read forges 101 and have been members of Iforge for years. I've used one of their forges the last two meetings of the Association of Alaskan Blacksmiths and they are great bang for the buck. One of our guys replaced the split hard firebrick floor with a split Morgan K-26 firebrick and K-26 baffles in the openings and it was screaming HOT. We're going to kick around a couple ideas for making the sliding brick baffles more integral to the forge. All in all I like Mr. Volcano. As a last personal evaluation, the flame looked good so I didn't pay much attention to the burner itself. I'll pay more attention next time one comes to a meeting but it works well so . . . Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 The guy doing the demo had some conclusions about judging burner flames strictly buy the forge's exhaust that I didn't agree with. He also was certain that what people thought of as burner noise, was actually being generated by swirl in the forge atmosphere, which I am holding judgement on; he may be right, or wrong on that one. One thing I got out of his demonstration was that some forge interiors probably act as sound amplifiers. So, that whether the noise is generated by the flame, or buy atmospheric swirl, the forge was definitely magnifying it. All the more reason to work on exterior doors as sound baffles. 6 minutes ago, Frosty said: and they are great bang for the buck. Totally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 I haven't seen the site so I reserve judgement on his judgement but you and I read forge exhaust as part of evaluating burner performance so it's possible he's got a method that works. I call it on his idea about burner noise though, in or out of a forge a burner makes a distinct jet engine noise, then again a Saturn 5 launch noise may be caused by swirling atmosphere. . . I suppose forge shape could act as a resonating chamber and amplify the sound but we're lining them with insulation which should be damping the sound while inhibiting the conduction of heat. No? Would you PM the link to me please, Mike? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 11 hours ago, Frosty said: I call it on his idea about burner noise though, in or out of a forge a burner makes a distinct jet engine noise, then again a Saturn 5 launch noise may be caused by swirling atmosphere. . . Good one, Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 As I'm not an acoustic or jet engine expert (though my father once designed turbine blades for Pratt & Whitney), I don't completely follow this article. However it does have something interesting to relate regarding combustion generated noise: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1540748914004003 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 So far as it describes the how and why of combustion noise, it certainly do I think ribbon burners are the primary answer to combustion noise, as I believe that most of the sound waves given off by their individual flames are cancelled out by white noise from their neighbors. Those of us who are invested in single flame burners, must look to other solutions to cancel turbulent flame noise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 In my latest ribbon burner there are 180 1/8" holes in the burner head, and the sound of the mig tip inducing air at the T fitting is louder than the flames at the burner. However, when first lit the burner gives off a "harmonic howl" similar to the sound made when blowing across the top of a glass bottle. It goes away by the time the forge is up to temperature though. So, I traded the roar for a howl, but at least the howl only lasts about 10 minutes or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 I started reading the article and went back to reading and watching about knapping tools. Came back a little while ago and Nope it still makes my head spin. For example, "The indirect combustion noise, is an additional noise generated when a fluid with a non-uniform entropy or vorticity distribution is accelerated, as it is when convected through the choked nozzle located at the outlet of the combustion chamber . . ." What's really making my head hurt is that bit makes sense but the verbiage, oh my goodness! I guess you have to cover all the possibilities in a publication so okay. I get it noise is caused by changing pressure waves. . . Heck noise is an unpleasant or over loud pattern if pressure waves. A high C is a pleasant enough sound, at 200db. it's dangerous noise. I guess the burner sound I listen for when tuning is a harmonic roar and is the result of rapid fluctuations in combustion. Okay, that makes sense. Focusing it through a restriction or into a resonating chamber or causing resonant vibration in surrounding materials makes it worse or another type of noise altogether, makes sense. The size of the combuster being directly related to volume and frequency is a given. And that right there explains why multi orifice burners are so much quieter. NARB distributes the same output over 19 smaller nozzles, the E / 19. AND the nozzles are smaller so the frequency is higher, perhaps non-harmonic at all, mine hisses. Maybe a roar is a loud hiss, I can go along with that but. . . One 3/4" single orifice burner cranks at least 100db. EASY I can hear it at the house with the shop door closed. The shop is uninsulated so that's maybe not a good meter. NARB is quiet enough to hold conversations in normal conversational levels standing close enough to make your clothes smoke. If each of the NARB orifices produced 10db the effect of 19 burning certainly isn't 19x10db. it's a modest hiss. So, what do we do to smooth out combustion into a continuous burn rather than a series of detonations? Of course I'm missing things but I have probably 150lbs of beautiful obsidian out back and have recently discovered a serious of how ot videos by pro knappers and I'm dying to make a couple boppers and pressure flakers and give it another slash. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 51 minutes ago, Frosty said: So, what do we do to smooth out combustion into a continuous burn rather than a series of detonations? I think that I'm safe in pointing out that the difference between the background hiss of laminar flames from a Bunsen burner, and the roar of turbulent flames from a Mikey burner is caused by flame variance; that is the rapid changes in combustion within the flame envelope. So is there a solution for this? Likely not, but it can be ameliorated by better gas/air mixing; this can be accomplished by paying deliberate attention to vortex flow, in burner designs. Of course that has its own problems and limitations, just like ribbon burners do. Ain't no magic answers; just an improvement here, and another one there.By and by things all get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 17 hours ago, Frosty said: Would you PM the link to me please, Mike? Ups! didn't read that yesterday; will try to find it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 Maybe just post the name of the shop that did the review. I googled mr volcano video and came up with several reviews from a bunch of shops. Christ Centered Ironworks did a bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 9, 2022 Author Share Posted August 9, 2022 That's who it was alright. And I'm lost in all those videos trying to find the one that Frosty wants to see...but, we were originally talking about the Mr. Volcano forge on this thread, and there are a lot of videos in that bunch so... here's the bunch, guys and may you all have fun too https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=volcano+forge+video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 Guess I'll be watching videos for a while. The first one on the list jibes with what I experienced last Saturday and the previous meeting. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 9, 2022 Author Share Posted August 9, 2022 What I like about this bunch of videos is that guys who want to know more about this forge, before plunking down their money can look to their heart's content. Others who would just like a little help deciding where to get started pounding iron have lots of choices too. I'm not used to information coming so rich and easy, but can probably stand the shock. One of the videos is about the two burner forge, and I was pleasantly surprised at the amount of powdered refractory (Plistix?) the manufacturer provided in their kit. Some of the videos plainly show burner flames, and they looked quite good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 Roy, "Christ Centered Ironworks," talks about the refractory flame face and it "cracking". He didn't allow the recommended cure time for the single burner but more than doubled it for the two burner forge and both checked. The refractory provided is "Satanite," which is mortar, not a flame contact refractory, it's formulated to cement masonry together. I've expressed my opinion of using mortar rather than a proper refractory for the flame face to "Mr. Volcano" but ease of application is a factor as is cost. I'd really prefer to see Plistex or Matrikote provided as it IS formulated for direct flame contact and rated to a higher sustained working temperature. Neither of the Mr. Volcano forges owned by club members have been in use long enough for me to determine how well it holds up by direct observation. The Mr. Volcano brought to the recent meeting used a Morgan K-26 fire brick sawn to half thickness for the floor and as noted by Roy it forms a flame trap where the flame impinges, even if pushed against the wall under the burner. I think angling the burner mount sleeve a bit would take care of this trait but perhaps not and the burner still experiences significant chimney effect so removing them on shut down is highly recommended. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 10, 2022 Author Share Posted August 10, 2022 A piece of high alumina kiln shelf might do the trick easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 It would if the buyer can cut it to fit. Were it my problem I'd lay about 3/8 of castable hard refractory for the floor and ditch the brick. Then again I've never liked any kind of brick for a forge floor. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 10, 2022 Author Share Posted August 10, 2022 A cutoff friction blade in an angle grinder will quickly cut them to size. But, I agree that Kay-O-lite 30 will do an even better job in this case. How fortunate that it can be bought in small amounts for this purpose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 I miss the obvious so often. <sigh> Then again I never look to a cut off wheel in an angle grinder until I'm out of safer options. It doesn't mean they have a place. Kastolite is a good option but application can be problematical. The easy way would be to mix it up and roll it out between spacers to make a uniform thickness, trim it to width, lay it on a piece of parchment paper, spritz the rigidized refractory blanket till its wet, slide the refractory into the forge and pull the parchment paper out from under it. The freshly buttered refractory blanket will wet the Kastolite and cause it to bond. Then you get to enjoy the curing process, a minimum 24 hours in 100% humidity, more is better but 24 is enough. A final kiln wash and it'd be bullet proof. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 11, 2022 Share Posted August 11, 2022 (edited) I cast the floor from bubble alumina in place has so far done good, at a little over 4 years without any damage. Didn't have as good luck with standard kiln shelf. Edited August 11, 2022 by Irondragon ForgeClay Works add picture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 11, 2022 Author Share Posted August 11, 2022 I wonder how some bubble aluma a mixed into Plistix would do as a forge floor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 11, 2022 Share Posted August 11, 2022 I don't know, I've been wanting to mix zircopax and Plistex. Maarten's experiments and results with 3% bentone and 97% zircopax were pretty exciting too. I'd have to use bentonite but that's just one test. I tried finding zirconium silicate flour online after you're recommendation but without luck. It's been a while I'll have to give it another try. I just went back and read your above post again to see if I missed anything and I'm glad I did. You can buy evacuated spherules at a concrete batch plant. A little tinkering to determine the best mix and we might be able to put together a plistex bonded zirconium bubble refractory or heck buy evacuated alumina spherules an have the real deal. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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