Mr Volcano video

[Mikey98118]

Yes; what I'm thinking is that Plistix is available in small amounts, and is an excellent refractory; it is also a pretty good heat reflector. If it can be mixed with reasonably priced bubble alumina, the mix would be pretty handy for anyone looking to make a good floor for small forges, at a decent price

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I picked up some Plistix to coat the whole liner. Just haven't got a roundtuit yet.

[Frosty]

Exactly Mike but why stop at the floor? It might be thick  but it'd be smooth enough to spread reasonably easily Plistex is already a poor enough thermal conductor it's a good IR re-radiator so adding bubble alumina drastically reduces it's conductivity, yes? Now add zirconium and it's a cray poor thermal conductor and tough as all gitout.  

Now, seeing as we're mixing it ourselves we can make a mix design for against the blanket refractory that's mostly bubble alumina to shield the blanket. The flame face mix design would be mostly zirconium flour to be the IR re-radiator. 

Yeah, I know I'm getting fancy and I tell folks to keep it simple all the time. But what the hey I'm retired I might as well. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

8 hours ago, Frosty said:

it's a good IR re-radiator so adding bubble alumina drastically reduces it's conductivity, yes? Now add zirconium and it's a cray poor thermal conductor and tough as all gitout.  

Yes, and the point about Zirconium for toughening is well put. Zirconium flour would have to be the stabilized variety, and that is about one-third more expensive than plain zirconium flour, which is too expensive to use as a refractory additive. But zirconium silicate will do just fine, and is available at reasonable prices through pottery supply stores. And what is easier to find here is going to at least be possible to find in other countries.

[LeeJustice]

You know I have been thinking for some time about the possibility of gathering up some of the waste material we have here at work.  We do thermal spray here and quite a bit of TBC's.  Thermal Barrier Coatings.  Most of that is Ytrria stabilized Zirconia.  What does not melt or get deposited onto the parts ends up on the floor or in the dust collector.  That is, what does not actually get sucked up into the dust collector.  One potential downside is that it will be contaminated with some of the bond coat powder, MCrAlY mostly, where M is Nickle or Cobalt.  Maybe some process could get them separated due to the weight difference of the materials.  What are your thoughts about that folks?

[Frosty]

Hmmm, maybe flip the circuit breaker on the dust collector for a couple minutes so you have lots to sweep up? 

My first thought would be try it as is and see how it works. If you need to separate it a centrifuge or really low tech hydrometer will divide particles with different specific gravities. Hydrometer isn't the right term but the process is what I'm referring to.

Basically mix it with clean fresh water and let it settle out. The heavier (denser) the elements the faster they settle making a sedimentary column with heaviest at the bottom, lightest at the top. A tall narrow clear cylinder works best.

We used the hydrometer to determine the gradation of super fines soils and the hydrometer took the specific gravity of the liquid at timed intervals, we called them "Spee Gees." In case you were wondering where the heck I learned that. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

If you are thinking of enriching high alumina refractory, then I don't think you need to get rid of the "contaminants." If you want to use the sweepings in a coating layer, they would probably make problems.

[Mikey98118]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:05 PM, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

I picked up some Plistix to coat the whole liner. Just haven't got a roundtuit yet.

If you input Plistix about the third item on the pop-up list is a fun and very informative video of guy using Plistix to coat a forge; he does a pretty slick job of it, too.

[LeeJustice]

Frosty, the dust collector inlet in the booths are a big box, with a front grate so no one gets sucked up into the dust collector.    There is a hood on the top which goes outside to the dust collectors.  LARGE duct collectors, high volume.  There is a lot of material inside the box at the back and bottom as it did not remain suspended in the air.

Mikey, my post was in part due to your previous post, in which you mentioned Zirconium flour.  What I am talking about here is Yttria stabilized Zirconia, not Alumina at all.

[Mikey98118]

1 hour ago, LeeJustice said:

What I am talking about here is Yttria stabilized Zirconia, not Alumina at all.

Understood. Then what you are thinking of is making your own refractory, based on stabilized Zirconia? Well, why not? Zirconium crucibles are so tough and insulating that they are used (with some electric coils) as a complete furnace.

What do you plan to use as a binder?

[LeeJustice]

I am not thinking about completely reinventing the wheel.  While it would be nice to get some bricks or substrate plasma sprayed with YSZ, I don't think that they would let me pull off a government job like that.  Too expensive.  I am thinking about its potential use in something that already is formulated, like Plistix, as an enhancing additive.  I also don't think that I want to figure out a high temperature binder for that, in itself.

[Frosty]

Plistex would be your binder in that case. Think of castable refractories like concrete, it has aggregate, fines and cement. You mix rock sand and cement add just the right amount of water and pour your concrete. Right? 

In this particular case you're using a binder, plistex say, as a cement matrix to suspend YSZ. ITTC-100 suspends zirconia in a kaolin clay matrix but it doesn't fire into a hard ceramic and so remains friable. (rubs off) 

Plistex, Matrikote or maybe Bentonite should all work. You will need to experiment to find the best ratios to use. One of the forum members did a thorough test sequence with zirconia flour and Bentone, arriving at 97% zirconia to 3% bentone, a type of clay closely related to bentonite.

Anyway, try SMALL batches until you find one that does what you wish. The lower the amount of binder seems to work best but maybe not with Plistex.

Keep us in the loop please, LOTS of folk here are interested.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Did he use zirconia flour or did he use Zircopax (zirconium silicate)?

[Frosty]

I don't recall. Maarten, are you still around? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[MonkeyForge]

Hi, yeah still lurking here  

I used Zirconium silicate.  See my last experiment linked in comment below. This was brush-able and fired smooth. I only tried it on kiln shelf and other smooth surface parts though. I suppose substituting the zirconium silicate with something similarly fine grained and inert could work well, if LeeJustice decides to go this way I am curious about the result, in that case keep us posted. Anyway, hope you are all well.

 

 

 

[tinkertim]

Hi MonkeyForge,
Looking online for Bentonite in the UK, I can see references to two types of Bentonite Clay, Sodium Bentonite and Calcium Bentonite.

Do you know which one I should be using, with the Zircopax, to make up some Kilnwash for testing?

[Mikey98118]

Calcium bentonite probably has a higher use temperature. Sodium content drops use temperature ratings in everything I've read about.

[Frosty]

The finer the zirconium the better it will re radiate IR. I still can't find finer than passing a 900 sieve which is much finer than Zircopax but far from flour, let alone colloidal.

Ah, there you are Mike, I was thinking calcium bentonite for the same reason but intuitively, I've been reading for the last couple hours and still having a PITA finding vitrifying and melting temps, even on the ceramics sites. 

I have to write "Monkey Forge," Bentone zircopax experiments, somewhere so I don't forget again. Good to see you delurk again Maarten, anything new your side of sea level? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[tinkertim]

Hi guys,
I was leaning towards the Calcium Bentonite (CB) because Sodium Bentonite (SB) expands massively with water, and so could have shrinkage & cracking issues when the moisture is driven off with curing.

From what I've read, the CB appears to be more stable, and is what is also known historically as "Fuller's Earth" in Olde England, where a "Fuller" would use it for drawing out natural oils from Wool during production. You learn something new every day! 

I will order some CB for testing along with some more Zircopax, and will initially try it on the flame face of my IFB door blocks, to see if it helps with sealing the surface, and whether it vitrifies at all.

If it does I will try it on a half-IFB floor block and see how it holds up to higher temps and heavier use.

[MonkeyForge]

TinkerTim: Is used Bentone, which is refined bentonite, more or less. Chemicaly it is noted as Al203.4SiO2.9H2O in its datasheet. It does massively expand in water and I use molochite to somewhat counteract the shrinkage during firing (and drying). (See my linked comment in previous post for reference) The same recipe with pure bentonite would probably need a higher percentage bentonite than it would with bentone, but I have never tested that. I think UK pottery/ceramics suppies should hold Bentone ME which a brand name but has similar properties. I do recommend that you measure the specific gravity of whatever you cook up during experimenting. Once you have something that works you can use that number to have repeatable results.   I just used some kiln shelf cut-offs painted them and baked them in the forge for testing. 

Frosty: I am currently a whopping 3 meters above sea level, and pretty close to the coast, all is well here, though a bit hot this summer. Built a small forge last year, which I still need to share here, got an Amal burner to play with something new. (got a small collection of burners by now) Not much forging/playing around. New job since April last year, challenging, which I like but yeah busy. Got a couple of knifes done though, plus a poker and some tongs for the wood stove.

[MonkeyForge]

mixed that up, Bentone MA, not ME.

[Frosty]

 I need to call the local ceramics suppliers and see if I can locate zirconium flour if not I'll have to use the -900 zirconium I've been able to locate inn small quantities online. 

Having drilled with bentonite I can testify about it from first hand experience. The stuff gets on EVERYTHING, especially dry, everything with in 10' ends up with a film on it. I don't know what kind of bentonite I have, it's the remains of a 55lb. sack of drill mud so (probably) sodium bentonite.

Shrinkage doesn't concern me, I'm not going to use enough to displace zirconium in the mix very far. So what if it shrinks and cracks? It won't crack like a dry mud puddle, at worst it'll just make space to vent steam when I fire it. 

If I can find fine enough zirconium or not I'm going to do my tests starting at 1% bentonite and hopefully reduce from there. Bentonite is incredibly sticky and crazy plastic, just a bit of dry mixing and every particle of zirconium WILL be coated in bentonite. Just enough moisture to make it softish plastic, stiffer than tooth paste softish and it'll spread like warm butter. 

Light vibratory action will cause the zirconium to compact together, "floating" free moisture and excess bentonite to the surface. Being bentonite it'll still take quite a while to dry but it can be accelerated with moist heat. Heat to drive moisture off, moist to keep the moisture levels consistent through the mix. Sounds contradictory but that's bentonite. The issue is zirconia flour will tend to pack tight so moisture will have to wick out through the infinitesimal voids between particles. Hopefully the particles will be in contact so the mix can not shrink. Larger particles may be a must.

It'll take experimentation and a different binder may be so much easier to process it eliminates bentonite as a practical alternative binder. I already know It'll BE a PITA by comparison to a water setting binder like Plistex but I like to tinker.

Everybody had a warm to hot summer, we're finally getting enough rain the fire danger has dropped to low green you can even have a campfire in an approved ring now. Camping in the rain in late summer, fall, is a normal thing here anyway. Busy and challenging is a good thing, it makes the day go quickly. I spent 30 years only being to light a fire occasionally, I get it. Please let us know how you like the burner.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[tinkertim]

Thanks for the info MF.

If it is massively expanding when wet then it must be the Sodium-based one.  Various uses for it suggest it's kept wet, so that is becomes a moisture barrier for small dams and flood-prevention uses, as it stays "gloopy".

Your Bentone formula doesn't mention Ca or Na elements in it, but your experience sounds like its the Na version.

One UK Pottery supplies store sells Bentonite with Al2O 2H2O 2SiO2 as the formula, and another just specifies it as Al2O3.  I might just get some small amounts to play with first.

I think I'd like to try the Ca version initially, as I might not need to add extra ingredients as you have, to counteract the swelling and shrinkage.

[LeeJustice]

If you do a search for Amperit 825.001, that is much of the waste YSZ material I would be getting.  Today, while working in a booth, I noticed that on top of the dust collector inlet box has maybe a 2 inch thick pile of powder on it.  I suspect that will be much less contaminated.

[Mikey98118]

I would like to point out the obvious. The single burner Volcano forge is a STEAL OF A DEAL!!!

Anyone who is looking to buy a first gas forge should shake a leg, before these people wake up and double its price. I'm just telling you like it is...wake up and jump on this.