Is there a good design for a large swage block stand?

[evfreek]

Hi.  I was asked to lead the blacksmithing for a restoration project that took a few weeks.  I was glad to help, although some smiths criticized me for unpaid work.  This was different though.  The whole group were skilled craftspeople who really knew their specialties, and it was very educational to see the mechanical, woodworking, textile, painting and such going on.  Besides, the camaraderie was delightful.  All good things come to an end, though, and when the job was done they gave me a hearty thank you, which was all I needed.  Imagine my surprise a couple of months later when they gave me a large swage block just out of the blue.  I already have a couple of small ones, but this one is a monster.  Although I'm grateful, I cannot safely single-hand it.  I looked around for a stand design, and I found mostly stands for smaller, lighter blocks.  Finally, I viewed this video by Gary Huston.

 

This stand is dangerous!  Go to the 34 minute mark which shows him changing orientations of the block.  I can imagine trying to do this when I'm tired.  There are just too many pinch points.  Does anybody have a pointer to a safer design?  I know, I know, "safety third", but I don't have Mike Rowe on speed-dial to help me handle this block.  Maybe this is a multi-person block and I should just flip it when I am hosting a group activity.

 

[Glenn]

Safety should ALWAYS be first.  Working tired is just NOT safe.  Too many things you do not recognize as dangerous. 

Working for an education or information is an investment.  You can collect all manner of ideas from each craft that can then be applied to whatever you are doing.  Combine several ideas and solve problems as they arise.

Pinch points are always available.   The object is to recognize them, reduce then, and or stay away from them. 

Make a couple of goesinta and weld them to one leg of the stand. Fabricate a 7 shaped crane hoist to fit vertically into the goesintas.  Use a come-along to raise, flip, and lower the swage block into place.  Just be sure the weight of the swage block, when raised, does not want to cause the stand to tip over.  The come-a-long does not have to be between the top of the 7 and the swage block.  It can be located on the leg of the 7 and use a couple of pulleys to direct the lift to the swage block. Just be certain that everything is secure during the lift, the flip, and lowering the block into place.  A piece of pipe or heavy rod can be used as a lever to encourage things to move while you keep your hands away from any pinch points.  Keep your hands out of harms way.  If the block does not slip easily into place, a lever can provide a bit of encouragement while keeping YOU and your hands at a safe distance.

Once the block is flipped, remove the crane so you have a clear path to work on the swage block.

[JHCC]

What Glenn said.

[Glenn]

Two goesintas, one at the top of the leg, and one at the bottom of the leg should stabilize the crane. 

An inverted U, using opposite legs to form a diagonal bridge across the stand.  That would most likely be the strongest and most stable lifting design.  

[George N. M.]

This, IMO, is a major problem with a one person shop using a swage block that was designed for an industrial shop where there were lots of helpers/minions to move things around and even machines like overhead cranes.  Really, what is the optimum size for a swage block for a one person shop?  And what shapes does a person commonly use?  I have never needed the flat bottomed Vs shown on the left side of the block in the introductory picture of the video.  There are some shapes and holes on some swage blocks that are a complete mystery to me.  I suspect they had an industrial use but are not needed in a smaller shop.  Some of the holes may be primarily for lightening the block.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

I agree Glenn, personal safety is the individual's responsibility. I don't know where you could lay a swage block that size where it wouldn't pinch pieces off you if you let it. I know mine sure will it weighs north of 300lbs.

The maker of the stand isn't someone to emulate let alone copy. Had he spent 15 minutes of the time he spent videoing the arc flash, doing some drawing and planning the stand would've come out much better. Then again the main aim of this video seems to be to show everybody who'll watch, he can run a smooth bead with a mig welder.

Did anyone else notice it didn't sit flat, on the table or floor? I don't think it would've earned a B in my high school metal shop 1 class. Preventing a shape from wracking when the welds pull is really pretty basic.

The pocket intended to hold it on edge is tight enough to be secure, good. Makes me wonder why he tried TIPPING it out or didn't he think of that? Didn't he design it to lift straight in and out? Personally I think he just winged it.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.

[evfreek]

Glenn, you're right!  Some kind of crane would really help.  Every time I've used a large swage block, there have been plenty of minions.  I worked with a smith once who was used to using heavy equipment.  He had a bridge crane that he used to move everything.  When I worked with him once, he wouldn't let me lift anything heavy.  He would ask me to stand to the side while he operated the crane, and he made sure that the lifting apparatus was tucked safely away after each deployment.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

engine hoist can be picked up used for $100

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

That is what we used at the ESSA Metal shop to move heavy stuff.

[Glenn]

When I said come-along, do not get locked into the actual come-along style device.  A boat winch works well.  Avoid a block and tackle, or rope hoist, as there is no way to securely stop, or disable, the device.  Then there is always the possibility of someone coming along and pulling the loose end of the knot, or rope, and turning everything into a free fall situation.

Low and slow are the words to remember whenever you are lifting anything.  A heavy object with one inch clearance is much easier to control, and less tippy, than the same object with lots of air underneath.  If that object wants to fall, or tip, get out of the way.  It is easier to hoist it back up without it being on top of you, your leg, foot, etc. 

Be sure that the dog and cat are outside of the building and locked in a crate. Animals have a habit of thinking they are inspectors, or helping, when they walk around or under the load.  

[JHCC]

This is, to be honest, another advantage of having a smaller swage block.

[Frosty]

I'm with you John, I almost never use my Lancaster Pattern swage block even though moving and orienting it aren't that hard nor dangerous. Primarily I use bottom tools in my anvil or the leg vise. I own that big honking swage block as it was going to the scrap yard if I didn't take it and take it then. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

nice score on the big block! do ya got a picture? 

On Johns note I’ve got a 75 pound block and it’s definitely easier to move then some of those big ones but I definitely wouldn’t turn down a big one if the price was right! Lol

BIGGUNDOCTORs engine hoist is a good an affordable idea to move lager ones!

 I’ve also seen guys build a small gantry crane on casters for moving heavy shop equipment

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

For light stuff like most anvils and swage blocks, I've seen a fellow using  Barn door hardware.  Run the track under the rafters and be able to slide stuff from one end of the shop to another.  Of course this supposes your setup will take the weight!   Barn doors can be quite heavy and so a proper set can take quite a bit of weight.

[Frosty]

I don't have a picture of IT specifically but there are a couple. The first is about as good as I have of the face. The 312 is stamped in, I rubbed it with soap stone to make it stand out. I think it's about right for the weight but have never weighed it. The round holes are round, they only look oval because of the angle. 

The second pic shows it on it's stand, I was taking a pic of the leg vise right after it's paint job so it doesn't show the stand too clearly. I made the stand from wooden guardrail posts, we were in the process of replacing them with steel posts so I brought some nicer ones home. The block rests on edge on the lower shelf. It doesn't show but the lower shelf is slanted back slightly so the block always leans into the stand. I have a keeper that passes through a hole in the block and spikes into the higher part of the stand in case I'm going to be doing heavy work on it.

What I use it for mostly is bending forks and other torquey activities. It's pretty easy to spin my anvils bending or twisting, etc. but you need power tools or serious leverage to make all that end grain wood spin under that block. 

I move it with my engine hoist, Lord loves hydraulics. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[evfreek]

Nice block, Frosty.  Since I have a hardy hole in my anvil, as well as a stake plate, I rarely use my little swage block.  I have half round bottom swages which drop into the hardy hole and are much more convenient.  An engine hoist is a great idea.  I have a couple of come-a-longs, but they are unwieldy for lifting due to the clearance required.  I also have an engine hoist, but my forging area is over gravel, and it is difficult to roll it around there.  I was thinking of some sort of gantry crane.  It can be pretty flimsy because the block is only about 200 pounds (but that's enough to pinch a finger).

Another idea that I just came up with is for a "wrench" that I can lever the block around with.  Almost anything would be better than those fiddly levers shown in that YouTube video.  They almost look like more trouble than they're worth.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys.

 

[Michael]

Love the barn door hardware solution for moving heavy things. Gear to keep an eye out for at swap meats and garage sales.

 

Thanks!

[Frosty]

If I don't have to move a thing very far I use a long lift chain and position the hoist so the load swings towards the jack when I lift it. A line on the load with one wrap around the post lets me pull it closer and snub it so it can't swing back. I call it inchworming a load. 

I laid an old piece of plywood on rough ground to roll the hoist on but inchworming is just as easy and I hate to kill even a crummy piece of plywood, the stuff is EXPENSIVE.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[JHCC]

Most of what I use my swage block for at the moment is the various dishing hollows on the sides. I do occasionally use the swages on the edges, but they're still pretty rough from the foundry and need some more cleanup.

[ThomasPowers]

Jib Crane. Since my dirty shop has dirt floors and utility pole supports I'm thinking of going with a jib crane for "light" lifting.