New Member here…

[stevenlynnhall]

Howdy Folks,

My name is Steve. I’m BRAND NEW to forging and want to get into knife making (I know it almost is cliche but it’s mostly forged in fire that has sparked the fire).

I’m setting up a charcoal smithy that is open air using a pergola in my back yard. 
I live in Southwest Florida.

I would like to start with a question regarding an open air (outdoor) setup. Although I will be tarting the top eventually, I worry about my anvil and things getting rusty. Should I be? 
 

I also have a nice old post leg vice I will be setting up soon. 
 

my first “project” was to make tongs out of some rebar to get the hang of heating up and hitting metal…. In about 20-30 minutes I think I got like 4 inches of the rebar square just to practice. Is rebar always pretty hard to move or does it just look that much easier on tv? 

sure looking forward to reading tons of posts and seeing lots of knife pictures. 
 

thanks,

Steve

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500' and 28 degrees in SE Wyoming.  I hope that you find the craft as rewarding as I have for the last 44 years.  If you put your location in your profile it will stay there.  We won't recall it after we leave this thread.

Rebar is funny stuff, it can vary in consistency even in the same length and within a few inches.  This is because it is made by a continuous casting process from scrap metal and the metal can vary by what scrap went into that particular area of the bar.  So, it is not particularly good stuff for forging.  I rarely use it.

While it is better not to leave your anvil and forge and vise out in the weather you can protect them with paint or boiled linseed oil (BLO) to deter rust.

You will learn that there is a lot more to blacksmithing than making blades.  In fact, blade making is more about the bench work of grinding, filing, polishing, making handles and hilts, making sheaths, etc. than it is about forging or heat treating metals.  I would say that if you spend 8 hours making a blade no more than an hour or two will be actually working with hot metal.  I don't make many blades because I usually would rather be hitting hot metal than working at the bench.

FIF has gotten a lot of folk interested in the craft but it is not a particularly good or realistic tutorial for techniques or tools.  For example, the silly little blowers they use when they are using coal forges and the fact that they never show tempering the blades.

Anyway, we're glad to have you.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frazer]

Hello and welcome aboard! My shop was outside for the first couple of years, but I had a roof (it was actually a deck, but close enough). I would prioritize adding some overhead protection to your pergola there, that will help keep some of the rain off. Granted you live in Florida so you probably get more rain there than I do in NY... Regardless, a roof of some sort can't hurt.

Generally speaking a little surface rust isn't going to harm your anvil, etc., but prolonged exposure and standing water could be more of an issue.

Other than that I don't have much to add to what George said above. Steel from a steel supplier is cheap and it's a much better staring material than rebar. It's possible that your piece of rebar is tough, it's also possible you're not putting enough heat in the bar to move material quickly. However, I'm going to go with it looks much easier on TV. Same applies to YT.

Not only do they condense the number of heats down to fit in their time block, but they don't show you the years of practice, experience and, in most cases, training these smiths have received since they started to be able to work that quickly. Once upon a time they were almost certainly whacking away on scrap metal too. It takes practice and technique to move material efficiently.

If you want to accelerate your ascent up the learning curve I would recommend you connect with your local blacksmithing group. It appears FABA is your local ABANA affiliate and meetings for the southwest region are on the fourth Saturday of the month. It appears they also have a Facebook group, but not having FB I can't say how active it is. Check out FABA's website here.

Good luck, I'm looking forward to seeing what you make.

P.S. If you haven't already, I recommend you READ THIS FIRST.

P.P.S. The pavers under your anvil will sink over time, leaving a nice puddle there.. Ask me how I know

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

howdy from eastern Oklahoma and welcome to the forum! 

I forge in open air I just keep my blowers well oiled and post vise screws greased, 

I throw something over my forges if it’s gonna rain 

and I keep all my Hardy’s an hand tools in a job box to keep them out of the weather 

I don’t worry about the anvils I have their all ol beaters an most of them I have already spent the better part of 100 plus years outside anyways an they still work perfectly, 

I wouldn’t mess with rebar like George an Frazer said there’s much better metal to be had, even at the junk yard! 

if your just starting out an need a pair of tongs another option you might look at is getting some blanks from kens custom iron,

I haven’t tried them out myself but we have had lots of members have good luck with them, and they are mild steel and much easier to work

 

[JHCC]

Welcome!

Given the general levels of humidity in Southwest Florida, I think you're going to be at risk of rusting regardless of whether you are inside or out. The suggestions above for rust prevention are good.

In addition to what people say above about rebar, tongs of almost any sort are NOT a beginner's project (YouTube bad-influencers notwithstanding). I would STRONGLY recommend getting a couple of pairs of professionally made tongs for when you are starting out, so that you can comfortably and safely build up the basic skills that you will need for many different projects -- tongmaking included.

[stevenlynnhall]

Guys,

thanks so much!

unfortunately, I read the “read this first” after posting… I did kinda look for something like that but didn’t find it until later. Saw the whole section on not using rebar! 
But I’ll admit I was really excited to just hit something and that’s what I had laying around. Lots of building going on here in Florida and it’s free and plentiful if you just ask at a job site.  I planned on making some tongs with it as my first smithing project.

as for the roof you can’t see in the picture but I do have some plywood over the anvil and forge/ old grill. But I have a heavy tarp I’m going to cover the whole space with. 

those bricks are over an actual slab. They look nice but I think they will go away for easier sweeping and I don’t want another thing in between my stump and the pad. 
 

good to hear I’m not the only one working out in the open. Southwest Florida is probably the best for that. 
 

also, learned a good lesson on lining my forge with the plaster and sand mixture with perlite. I thought it worked pretty good and I lined it with some floor tiles for a smooth surface to clean. Once up to temperature…. BOOM! SNAP! POP!    
I was kind of scared to go near it for a minute! Lol

bit I got metal bright yellow and was able to move it if even just a little.

I will be getting into contact with the local club and take some classes though. It seems like the best way to learn faster than making all the mistakes myself. Also, the reason I’m here. 
thanks again and after even the first day and first post I love the community. Would definitely buy a shirt or something if that’s offered to help the site out as it has already helped me!!!

thanks guys!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Rebar is made as structural reenforcement, and thus as long as it meets the minimum requirement for that. Exactly what it is is any ones guess. Using it is a mater of experimenting with each piece and seeing how it works, hardens and holds up. Kind of like our ancestors did with each money bar. Much of the stuff from the local mega store is really hard and will air harden. 
you will also find the much recommended structural steel from the steel (A13) has the same issues of being an unknown mix of scrap that can very wildly even in the same bar. 
easily sources scrap such as steering lincage, car axles, automotive springs and such are much more consistent material. Leagaly obtained rail steel is also good scrap to work with. Spikes are consistent mild steel, rail, clips and plates much higher C. Bend fork lift tines are another good sorce of medium carbon. 
welcome to the insanity of beating hot steel. 
being in Florida stainless and bronze are good material to learn to work with. Large diameter braising rod, the acuater rod from no freeze hydrants (probably not to common there) are sources of forgable bronze. 

Further I would suggest any of the JABOD (just a box of dirt) or simple side blast forge threads for much simpler and more efferent charcoal forge designs.  

The forge you have is good for heat treating long blades but will be fuel hungry for forging. 

Tell us about your anvil, is it an AFO or just an affordable cast steel anvil? In the later case easing the sharp edges will be a good idea, sharp edges lead to cold shunts, cold stunts lead to cracks. Good practice is to round the edge in a progressive manner so it’s, say 1/4” radius at on end of the edge and 1/2” or more at the other. 

[Frazer]

1 hour ago, stevenlynnhall said:

I did kinda look for something like that but didn’t find it until later

No worries. Posts in the Introduce Yourself section are always welcome! I'm glad you found some useful information nonetheless. I suggest adding your general location to your profile for folks like myself who may forget after leaving this thread.

[JHCC]

9 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

much recommended structural steel from the steel (A13)

Did you mean A36? If so, I have to disagree; A36 has much more specific standards for its chemical composition (namely, Carbon (C): 0.25 - 0.290%, Copper (Cu): 0.20%, Iron (Fe): 98.0%, Manganese (Mn): 1.03%, Phosphorus (P) 0.040%, Silicon (Si): 0.280%, Sulfur (S) 0.050%).

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yes, my fuddled brain Kent A36. They must have improved the standard wile I slept, lol. I have had the stuff be easy to drill for 3 holes and then dull two bits on the forth, I have also had it forge weld just fine then have a spot it the same bare wouldn’t stick no mater what I did. Thus I recommend treating like unknown scrap. 

[JHCC]

It can make a difference whether you're salvaging a piece (in which case, unknown scrap rules apply) or buying new from a yard (in which case, you can be reasonably sure that you're getting decently consistent steel).

[stevenlynnhall]

43 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

The forge you have is good for heat treating long blades but will be fuel hungry for forging. 

Tell us about your anvil, is it an AFO or just an affordable cast steel anvil? In the later case easing the sharp edges will be a good idea, sharp edges lead to cold shunts, cold stunts lead to cracks. Good practice is to round the edge in a progressive manner so it’s, say 1/4” radius at on end of the edge and 1/2” or more at the other. 

That’s disappointing about my forge! It got the metal bright yellow but it did seem to use a bit of charcoal to do it. 
the anvil is just a cheap vevor. 135# supposed to be cast steel. 
a local guy was selling an old anvil with no name on it   But it was pretty beat up on top and not at all flat as well as covered in red paint…  didn’t have warm feelings about paying $700 dollars for an unknown…. 
but I will be searching for “the” anvil as I go along. 
thanks for the input and will check out those forging ideas. This one was just a collaboration of YouTube videos and my own mind.  

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Don’t be afraid of beat up anvils, as long as they have a ring an rebound you can work around chips, nicks and wear,

all my anvils are beaters and they work perfectly fine, if I need a sharp edge I just make a hardy to accommodate, 

 I agree $700 is pretty steep for a used anvil unless it’s pretty good sized, 

here in eastern Oklahoma I’ve been finding used anvils for $2 a pound, but $4-$5 isn’t bad if an anvil is in pretty good shape,

much higher then that an I would order new, but that’s me

[stevenlynnhall]

Yeah, I think it was a bit much. It was 125# said he thinks it is a hay-budden…. 
but no markings and covered in thick red paint?  
the pain was old I could tell so who knows.

I passed and he will probably sell it but I wasn’t sure enough as I had been thinking about just getting new that I know what I’m getting and I’ll have it forever! 
I’m thinking of either a rigid peddinghaus #9

or a Texas Farrier Supply similar weight and shape. 
 

any suggestions are also welcome as I only know what the interwebs have told me.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

There’s a thread on here in the anvil section of current anvil manufacture’s,

I would take time and read through the list and research the various brands,

there are two anvil makers on that list who are also members here, so you could ask them questions about their tools if your interested

[JHCC]

Vevor is fine as a starter anvil. Might want to soften the edges a bit, so you don’t have any sharp corners creating cold shuts. 

[SHC]

George, they’ve upgraded the blowers on FIF! Still may be pretty sorry to yours and the rest of the expert eyes of professional full time smiths here, I know little about blowers. I’ll be picking y’all’s brains and the numerous threads about that some day very soon hopefully. But I noticed in these later episodes I’ve been watching that they seem to produce much more volume and just keep spinning and spinning when the bladesmiths let go of the handles.

 

 Steven, I’m in north Louisiana. It ain’t Florida, but we have our issues with humidity too. I have a brand spanking new anvil from Holland Anvils, and I could practically watch the rust begin to grow the moment I unwrapped it about a month and a half ago. I go out to my forge daily, even when not working in it, address any fresh rust on all my tools with a handheld wire brush and liberal amounts of BLO. The sides of my anvil now have quite a pretty chocolate brown patina and a polished face. The rest of my tools have a nice polished sheen from use combined with this treatment. 

[ThomasPowers]

Suggestions?  I strongly suggest you read the improvised anvils thread.  The London pattern anvil has been around about 300 years while the "cube of metal" anvil has been in continuous use for over 3000 years.  Also  without stampings there is no way to attribute a PW anvil as there were *many* anvil makers making anvils very much alike.

When buying steel new:  I can get a 20' stick of steel from a steel dealer for about the same price as buying 3-4' of it at a big box store.  However I get a lot of my steel at a small "Family" scrapyard that is about 50 miles closer to me than the nearest steel dealer and a heck of a lot cheaper, 20 USCents a pound.

One of my anvils was stored for 50 years in an unheated shed in a swampy area near a stream in Ohio.  When I bought it it had fine rust pitting all over the face due to condensation.  I brushed the loose rust off it and started forging on it and now the sweet spot is gleaming!  Nothing more than just forging on it.

Charcoal usually takes a good high pile to get a hot spot that is not oxidizing and very "soft" air.  Your forge looks like it was designed from a BAD DESIGN being sold commercially.  Think of it as: if you were designing your own car, would you base your design on a Yugo or a Mercedes?  (The plaster of paris is a dead give away, PoP starts to degrade about 1000 degF *BELOW* forging temperatures, YueTubby is a source with no filtering, give me a bit of time and I can have a video up claiming that you are the love child of Margret Thatcher and Elvis Presley!)

Now I don't suggest folks jump into bladesmithing before they learn the basics of fire control, hammer control, how steel moves and temperature control; learn how to drive a car before trying to race in one!  (We all probably know folks who didn't try it that way and so crashed their first car!)   When you want to get started bladesmithing I suggest taking an automotive coil spring and cutting it down a diameter to get a dozen+   (   pieces all the same steel. This lets you learn the correct forging of that steel and heat treating of it (and if you have "beginner's luck" makes a decent knife too!   Try to get a spring with as few miles on it as possible and avoid any broken ones found on the side of the road.  Places that do lifts and lowers may scrap out brand new ones and if you explain you want to use one for forging a blade you may even get it for free or at scrap price!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Don’t fret, we all stumble in the beginning. We have loads of experience here to share.

charcoal has been used as long as man has forged copper, bronze and iron. So the formula is pretty well known. A 3/4” schedule 40 black pipe nipple angled down about 5 degrees for a tuyere buried 4” in the ground (or box of dirt) this is from the top of the tuyere. Now dig a 4” wide trench sloping down to 1” below the tuyere. This will be 8-12” long with the tuyere just nearing the side of the trench at 90 degrees. A mound on each side 4-6” tall will help contain the fuel wile letting you stick long bars threw the fire. 
now as TP points out charcoal need a lot less air than coal, in fact most mechanical blowers to include hair driers and electric bed inflators make way to much air. The easiest way to fix this is just to aim the blower at the tuyere and move it back and forth to control the blast. A valve of some kind can be made ( pointing the waste torn you helps in the heat) 

you can eliminate on mound but it makes fire management a bit harder.

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains. We moved from the Miami-Dade metro area in '82 and never looked back. I have made a lot of stuff out of rebar in the last 37 years but learned early on it's no good for tools or anything that will have stress applied to it. Stuff like bottle openers, small S-hooks, plant hangers, leaves, drawer pulls, etc. are fine as long as you realize each piece may not forge like the last one from the same bar.

It looks like your forge is patterned after the Tim Lively washtub forge. It will work but as others have said it's a fuel hog.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/65370-tim-lively-washtub-forge/

 

[Steve Sells]

When I was forging outside, I used a large rubermaid tote to place over the anvil to keep it dry

[ThomasPowers]

Looked more like that wood burning forge being sold commercially to me. The TL forge has a deeper firepot and less width down low to use less charcoal.  (Also uses dirt/clay and not PoP!)

[Charles R. Stevens]

Whitman or Whitley or sum such. They work ok for wood but not great, I still find sideblast more efferent for charcoal

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Steven, glad to have you. Rebar is good stock for some things like tent stakes and similar. It's not too good for general forging though folk in Europe say differently. Evidently they have different standards.

You can buy a stick (20' length) of steel at a supplier for a little more than two 4' pieces of "weldable" steel at a big box store. I like to start folks with 3/8" square hot rolled, it's heavy enough to hold heat for a while and light enough a person can move it well each heat. For example a beginner can make an S or drive hook in around half an hour and have good results. As you discovered it can take almost that long to drive the texture from and square a piece of rebar.

Next time you line a solid fuel forge use a clay sand mix just barely damp enough to ram hard. If you make it wet enough to pat in place or form like pottery it WILL shrink check (crack like a dry mud puddle) when it dries. 

Take a look through the charcoal forge section here, there are a number of proven designs to copy. The JABOD is a modern adaptation of a truly ancient solid fuel forge. It's such an efficient and effective forge the original configuration is still in use an many places around the world.

I agree, tongs are an important tool, if you can't hold it you can't do much good to it. Buying a couple pair is a good option, well worth the money. Another option that doesn't involve the acquired skill sets forging a pair requires are "Twist Tongs."

There's a pretty decent how to here a couple pages down. https://www.iforgeiron.com/index2.html/blueprints/00-series/bp001 easy-to-make-tongs-r1099/ "BP001 Easy to make tongs"

Remember, whatever you do this is supposed to be fun. 

I had my setup under a tarp for a few years and I live in Alaska. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[stevenlynnhall]

Yep, mine is very much like that washtub forge!  I will be making another attempt when I get the time. As for the hair drier it is a small travel one that on the low setting doesn’t seem to push out a whole lot of air. 
I will see if I can slow it some more. 
As for the “mud”, it’s a mixture of drywall compound, sand, and perlite. A recipe I got from some YouTuber… it did snap crackle and pop a bit when it got up to temp.  I think that was mostly the ceramic floor tile I lined it with. 
Thankfully, I have available a ton of bricks and access to some real fire bricks too. So I’ll be studying this forum’s recommendations for my “permanent” build.