Excited to be here!

[TryingLobster]

Hi all,

My name's Dane, though TryingLobster is the handle I've been using most recently. I've wanted to work with my hands and build things since I was very young. Some years ago I got really into reading about iron metallurgy and I've been wanting to get into blacksmithing since. At the end of last year, I had the opportunity to quit my tech job and move to the Ozarks of Arkansas and start practicing instead of just reading about blacksmithing.

Since moving in November of last year, I've set up my first forge out of a steel pipe I bought from the scrap yard. The walls of the steel pipe are covered in 2.5" of kaowool with hard firebrick for the floor of the furnace, then covered in refractory cement for protection. I've only got a single propane burner at the moment, so I've closed off the back half of the forge's volume with soft firebrick to keep the temperature up. The burner is homemade following Larry Zoeller's sidearm design with a 0.035" tapered welding tip as the propane orifice and works really well for my purposes.

I've also set up a table for sand casting. So far I've just practiced by melting aluminum scrap and casting it into ingots, attempting to get my greensand mix right. I spent Tuesday of this week sifting play sand because I haven't found a good local source in NW Arkansas yet, but I think my greensand is pretty usable at this point, if not quite perfect.

I'm also starting to make my own iron tools now that I set up an anvil out of a 98# scrap forklift tine. I'll post more details on the 'Improvised Anvils' thread, which has been a massive help to me! So far I've only made a chisel, which I'm both extremely pleased with and also makes it quite obvious how far I have to go! I need a LOT of hammer practice before I stop marring up the piece I'm working, haha.

I'm really excited to find such an awesome community online, especially with so much wisdom available for me to read through for hours. I like to do a lot of reading and research before I get started, and this site has already been a tremendous help. I'm really looking forward to actually interacting with folks who do this stuff regularly, both online and in real life!

I signed up with ABANA. Side-note, I actually did some web development for LeeAnn Mitchell for ABANA about 15 years ago; that may have planted the seed that eventually brought me here! I'm still looking for local blacksmith groups in the Fayetteville/NWA area to get involved with. I suspect things are pretty slow conference-wise with the pandemic, but I'm looking forward to meeting folks when things settle down a bit.

Dane

[BillyBones]

Welcome aboard. Looks like a nice set up there. The propane guys may be here to give some suggestions later. The only thing i see is you may want to float that tank in a tub of water. Helps with keeping it from freezing. 

What kind of steel for the chisel? A few hammer marks but you will get nice and smooth in no time with practice. Overall though nice work on everything. 

Kind of jealous of the casting table. I started getting into casting this past fall. Unfortunatly the only place i can get a fire to cast is outside and since getting the supplies i have not had a day that it did not rain, snow, or a mix that i could do it on. 

Again welcome, dont mind the curmudgeons (they are actually really nice guys, just don tell them i said so) We love pics and seeing progress made by others. This site has done more to advance my skill and make me reach beyond my comfort zone than any where else i have been. Keep it safe and have fun. 

[ThomasPowers]

Howdy; I was born in Fayetteville, got my first degree there, got married there,  still own 13 acres in Cedarville and have kinfolk all over the region.  (West Fork has a step Daughter & family.)  I took an "out of hours" brass casting class at the UofA, oilsand, taught by Hank Kaminsky---but that was back in the early 80's...  Moved for a job in 1989 and have only been back for visits since then.  Do you like caving?  Nice karst region...

There is a NW AR blacksmithing group and some members are bound to be by in a moment or two.

[TryingLobster]

Thanks BillyBones! And I don't mind curmudgeons. I once had a professor who was so curmudeonly I had to write a letter of recommendation for HIM to the school saying that he was actually a good professor, he just didn't tolerate people wasting his time.

Good idea on floating the tank! I just put in a shelf under the forge for the tank to sit on so the whole thing is more mobile. So far I've only had a little bit of frost on it after running it for maybe an hour or two. I have some cracks in the forge the fill in, but once that's done and cured I've got some ITC-100 wash I'm excited to put in. If I'm still freezing the tank after that I think I'll sink a little water-tight tray into the shelf that I can put water in to help keep things flowing nicely.

The chisel is made out of an extremely exotic alloy called "whatever Lowe's had in stock". I have no idea how to read the codes on the rod stock they had so unfortunately I have no clue. I need to find a good store for stock here in Fayetteville so I know what I'm buying, but the snow around here has to melt first.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome to the Ozarks. We have a club chapter in our area The BOA Blacksmith Organization of Arkansas NW Chapter. We would love to have you as a member. Sadly our web site hasn't had a web master in quite a while but the site is still up and running. Covid has put a crimp in meetings but we are slowly getting back up to speed. Our next meeting is Feb. 12 at a members shop in Fayetteville. There are some IFI members fairly close also. Twistedwillow and I are not too far, although we don't get to the big city very often. I'll send ya a PM regarding the meeting if you would like.

[TryingLobster]

ThomasPowers, cool! I only recently moved here but I love it. I will look into the caving, thanks for the recommendation! I might be a bit err... thick-set for much caving myself, but I do love geology and the geology in the region is really cool. I'll look around for a cave that isn't too narrow.

Irondragon, FANTASTIC! Hit me up and I'll be there!!

[ThomasPowers]

I've never seen big box stores sell anything but A-36 "weldable steel" and at a outrageous price. (I can usually buy a 20' stick of A-36 at a good steel sales place for about the cost of 3-4' at a BB store.)   For a lot of tooling automotive springs are good stock source; usually around 5160 so they can be hardened.  The trick is to find them with as *few* miles on them as possible.  (I've found some at my local scrapyard that had the original paper labels on them!)  Of course the medium to high carbon steels are a lot harder to work and much more subject to catastrophic failure when being worked; so I suggest getting used to smithing on mild steel and work you way up to M-HC steels.   (For example during a class I taught in El Paso one winter I warned folks about "contact quenching" of HC steels, then heated a piece of spring steel up and clamped it in a cold postvise---it fell out in a bunch of pieces when I opened the jaws....)

[anvil]

Sounds like you are on a strong positive roll! 

[TryingLobster]

1 minute ago, ThomasPowers said:

I've never seen big box stores sell anything but A-36 "weldable steel" and at a outrageous price.

"Weldable steel" is exactly what this was.

2 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

I suggest getting used to smithing on mild steel and work you way up to M-HC steels.

That's my plan for sure. I'd like to get my basic technique figured out before I get into HC steels and heat treating, and from what I've read many times here, "cold mild steel is still harder than hot HC steel".

[JHCC]

Welcome aboard, TryingLobster. I like the handle, but if someone comes at you with a bowl of clarified butter, watch out!!

I'm pretty sure Lowe's doesn't carry any hardenable steel; have you tried hardening and tempering your chisel yet? I would definitely recommend making friends with a mechanic who can hook you up with some coil springs for chisels and punches. There are some good threads about making tooling; you'll get the hang of it soon enough.

I will give you one piece of advice that I wish more beginners would follow: Do not skimp on tongs when you are starting out! You can get started with a homemade forge (gas or solid fuel), you can improvise an anvil from a chunk of steel, and you can modify a cheap hammer from the hardware store, but there is no substitute for good tongs. Trust me: it will be money well spent!

[TryingLobster]

Thanks, JHCC!

I was planning on forging some tongs, but I appreciate the recommendation to just buy some good ones to start with. I may just do that. My goal was to get a little practice before attempting to forge tongs since I'd be using them constantly and need them to be good, but buying some would guarantee they don't fail on me.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I second that about tongs. If you can't hold it you can't hit it. Until you get to making your own tongs it's easy to modify cheap end nippers that can be found in junk shops and garage sales. That is what I did starting out 30+ years ago and still pick them up when found. Some of our members sell good tongs at meetings. Even though I can make them, I have bought some from Bob Patrick (a master blacksmith) because his are better than mine.

There is a good steel supplier in Rogers, Wheeler Metals, on hwy 62 headed north past the airport & before Avoca. They don't carry high carbon steel but for mild steel they are great folks.

[JHCC]

Knowing how to make tongs is an excellent skill to have, but it's not a beginner's skill. Good basic tongs will allow you to make a wide range of projects and develop a correspondingly wide range of skills; these will ultimately come in useful for everything, not just for tong making.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Dane, glad to have you. 

About how you have your forge burner plumbed. I HIGHLY recommend you lose that long nipple between the burner and valve, all it's doing is putting a lot of leverage against the pipe full of pressurized flammable gas. A 90* elbow straight off the burner aimed away from the forge is good, especially if the propane hose can screw directly into it. Don't quote me but I THINK common propane hose has a 3/8 FPT fitting so you want to match it in male pipe thread. Check before you buy fittings though, my memory is . . . What were we talking about?

Then put the 1/4 turn shut off valve directly on the regulator for a couple good reasons. 1, it puts your hand away from the forge when you light it or have to shut the fire off in a hurry. Fewer burning hair smells, yes? the other main goodness is not leaving the hose and fittings pressurized when you shut it off. Lastly it has you right at the tank when you open or close the valve so any adjustments can be made in the same "safe" location.

Lastly is the length of the mixing tube on your burner it looks way long. The ratio that works best for Naturally Aspirated burners is 8:1. Tube length being 8x it's internal diameter. 0.75"x 8 = 6". There's some leeway but it's not good making the mixing tube shorter, nor more than an inch or so longer.

ITC-100 isn't a particularly good kiln wash, it's designed as a release agent for pottery kilns, it keeps glazes and clay from fusing to the kiln furniture. As part of it's designed function it remains sort of chalky and will rub off. This is NOT a desirable characteristic in a propane forge, you'll be scrubbing and poking the liner with STEEL every time you use it.

A much better kiln wash is Plistex 900 as found in the Iforge store. It fires hard so is mechanically durable, it's high alumina and so resists flux erosion. and lastly it has a rated max sustained working temperature of 3,000f. It's also a poor thermal conductor so thermal energy from the flame passes more slowly to the hard refractory liner, both protecting it SOME and re-radiating the IR back into the forge more effectively.

I highly recommend you lose the hard firebrick forge floor, where it is it's consuming more propane to bring to your desired temperature and being an only SLIGHTLY better insulator than an equal thickness of limestone, it's consuming more fuel keeping the heat in the chamber. 

A flat floor in a cylindrical forge is as easy as cutting to your floor width and laying another piece of ceramic blanket in the bottom. Feather the edges so they make a smooth transition from the floor to the cylindrical walls. Rigidize everything of course. Lastly coat the floor with your hard refractory, allow it to set. (FOLLOW THE DIRECCTIONS FOR THE REFRACTORY YOU USE!) Ignore what some guy on the internet says or does. 

Above you say you used "Refractory CEMENT" <GASP GAG!>. It's becoming common for everybody to call their product refractory CEMENT, it's becoming the vernacular. Unfortunately if it actually is a CEMENT it's a crappy propane forge liner. Cements and Mortars are designed to stick things together, things like bricks and are NOT formulated to last long in direct contact with flame. ESPECIALLY NOT a propane forge burner flame Burning propane is VERY chemically active, especially if it's burning in the 2,500f range and it will just eat refractory cements and mortars. 

Use one of the established forge refractories, the latest popular favorite is Kastolite 30 li. It's a water setting, high alumina, castable, bubble refractory. It SETS, not dries! That's am important detail well covered in the Forges 101 section. Being an alumina refractory it's resistant to  borax containing fluxes. The bubbles are evacuated silica spherules taking the place of some of the aggregate in the refractory doing two things. First (in our opinion) it improves the insulating properties of the liner, keeping more heat IN the forge rather than heating the room through the shell. Secondly it weighs less which has advantages for us but after it's properties as an insulator.

 I'm not picking your forge build apart Dane, I'm suggesting improvements for your next one and believe me there will be more. Everybody who's been doing this a while has old forges collecting dust somewhere in the shop. That's a darned good first forge, well done.

Frosty The Lucky.

[TryingLobster]

Thanks, Frosty! I really appreciate the feedback! Yeah, several of the pipes on the burner are a bit long and you're right the resulting torque on the burner is a hassle. I've already got a second burner in the works and I'll shorten things up before I get it all assembled. I'll probably swap burners, then shorten up the first one to match. Totally agree on the right-angle right off the nipple. I just haven't had a chance to assemble all the appropriate parts to get that plumbed. The regulator and hose are 3/8" flare, but I converted to 3/8" NPT (including yellow teflon on assembly) because I was able to find more fittings locally (especially tees, see the comment below about multiple burners). The plumbing is definitely a work in progress!

Relatedly, my propane tank ran dry in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner about 2 weeks after moving in, so I had to learn propane pipe standards pretty quickly. 

I've got the quarter turn valve at the burner because I anticipate putting that second burner into this forge and having valves on each so I can have the full forge volume with two burners or half volume with just the one. Thanks for the reminder to not leave the hoses pressurized. I've been usually cutting off the propane at the tank itself so everything is at standard pressure when not in use. I'll be sure to make a habit of doing it that way.

I'm surprised hearing about ITC-100. Sounds like things have changed quite a bit since I initially planned out the forge. I had always heard it was the best you can get for a top-level coating given its IR reflectivity, though I did hear it was quite sensitive to poking. I had no idea it was a release agent. Using something more resistant to flux sounds like a solid win.

The refractory cement I'm using is Meeco's Red Devil. It's listed for use up to 3000 F, but I take your point. I'll look into the Kastolite; the flux tolerance again would be a win.

And thanks again for the feedback. I appreciate the thorough review! I figure if the forge was total garbage, nobody would put the effort to call out the individual changes you have, so I take the suggestions as a compliment of sorts. This first forge has gotten me melting aluminum and forging iron, so I'm sure as heck excited to be using it as-is. To know it can get even better is just more to look forward to.

PS. "Meeco's Red Devil Refractory Cement" to be specific. I forgot "Red Devil" is a whole suite of products.

[JHCC]

Meeco's is designed to stick refractory bricks together, not to serve as a flame face. Frankly, you would probably be better served by ripping it out and starting over -- or at very least, being ready to do that real soon.

[George N. M.]

Dane, welcome aboard for 7500' in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.  I hope that you find the craft as rewarding as I have for the last 44 years.

Another way to keep a propane tank from freezing up is to get a larger tank.  I use 30# tanks (about the largest I can horse around when full) and have little problem with them freezing until they are getting low.  Also, with larger tanks you don't need to refill as often.  I hope you know that it is a LOT cheaper to get tanks refilled at a propane dealer than doing an exchange of an empty tank for a full one.

I also recently learned that if the propane dealer is following the rules they should they will not refill a tank that is more than 12 years old unless it has been pressure tested an recertified.  I usually get my propane at Murdock's (the local farm store. Similar to Tractor Supply, Big R, and other similar chains.) and had to take the tank to a local bulk propane dealer to have it pressure tested and recertified.  The recertification is only good for 5 years.  I am sure that not all propane suppliers are as picky.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Howdy from eastern Oklahoma! And  Welcome to the forum! 

It’s always Nice to see another person close  by!

 

 

[Scott NC]

  Welcome TryingLobster.  There is a thread in the "Everything Else" forum titled "The Story Behind Your Screen Name", hope to see you comment on there someday....   Don't forget adequate ventilation, especially if you are getting into pouring metals.  I can't tell from your photo how and where you have your shop set up.

[TryingLobster]

Thanks, Nodebt! The story isn't terribly interesting, but I'll post it there to satisfy curiosity.  I have my forge in my shop which has a large garage door just to the right in that picture that I open when the forge is running, so I feel pretty confident on ventilation. My fiance won't have me risking my health or safety even if I wanted to.

George, there are also laws around how to transport propane tanks over a certain size. When my main 100# tank ran out over Thanksgiving, I had no "correct" way of transporting it because I didn't own a truck at the time (I know, can't live in the south without a truck!) I had a very nice chat with the main propane technician lady at my local Tractor Supply on refilling propane tanks, cracked some jokes, made friends, and now I have the inside hookup both on knowing what you're SUPPOSED to do with propane tanks as well as well as being able to get my propane refilled in emergency situations even if I don't exactly dot my I's and cross my T's.

JHCC, ouch, that's a bit of an ego bruise to have to tear the thing out after having it only a week or two. I get that it's not designed for this purpose, but can you give me a little more info on why it's not good for this use or how it fails when used this way so I know what to look for? I'd really like the use the forge for a while to at least get started, but I also don't want to use a dangerous forge.  I'm sure this is a rooky mistake, but a lot of things I've read recommend getting a high-temp cement for starter forges. These are the same places that recommended ITC-100 as a forge wash though, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are other mistakes in my understanding. I'll read through Forges 101 here (I only found this site after the forge was nearly complete) and try to get up to speed.

[George N. M.]

Yes, you are not supposed to transport a filled propane tank inside the passenger compartment of a vehicle but that is usually observed more in the breach than the observance.  I, too, don't have a pickup but it is only about 2 miles and 6 minutes to the nearest propane supplier.  So, I set the tanks upright on the front and back passenger seats and seat belt them in place.  I figure the risk is minimal and acceptable and I really don't have any other option.  Locally, I don't think I could get a propane delivery truck out for less than 100 pounds.  Also, there would be an issue in the winter of getting the delivery truck through the snow drifts in the alley behind the shop.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[TryingLobster]

George, that's exactly what my situation was. I called a bunch of delivery places and the only one that picked up the phone actually laughed at me for thinking they could get a refill out to me. They couldn't get enough drivers. I set mine up in the back of the SUV as vertical as I could and just went for it. No problems.

[George N. M.]

I've done that when camping, use a strap to tie it to one of the hold downs in the back to keep it upright.  I've never had a problem.  Same if transporting gasoline.  I keep thinking I need a PU for things like this or transporting heavy/bulky stuff but the need has never justified the cost.

GNM

[JHCC]

Acetylene, on the other hand, would be an entirely different — and much more dangerous — ballgame. 

[Frosty]

I'm glad you didn't get steamed by my critique TryingLobster, I'd hate to see you flake off. 

What John means by prepare yourself to rip that liner out and replace it, to paraphrase. because my memory isn't THAT good. The cement you used has a pretty short life as a flame face in a forge. He isn't saying you should rip it out now, just don't be surprised. You did a great job, few guys do so well just reading about them on the internet.

Get everything you can from it while it lasts, we do. I've  worked all my mistakes to the last when they worked at all. I have a couple forges that didn't get past a couple firings in the utter disbelief that as many as I've built I could be THAT  wrong.<shudder>

Making a multi use forge, melter can be done lots of guys have. Unfortunately they don't do either well. It is, however really easy to dismount the burner and stick it in another appliance. One burner will heat the dickens out of either or both. 

If you figure out how to do both at the same time let us know. You'll be famous and we'll help!

I fill my tanks at the local Distributor's main yard and they just exchange bottles, it saves them from reading the plackards and explaining why they aren't going to fill a tank until it passes certification. All my tanks have new valves, excellent seats and fresh certifications. I have a 100lb. tank in the shop and a pair of 40 lb tanks for mobile. I can get them in the pickup because my best yard sale find was an engine hoist so I don't have to strain harder than lowering the tail gate and pulling the lift arm down. 

Yard, garage, rummage, estate, etc. sales are your friends. Lots of things we find VERY useful are often on the, free. Please take this stuff! table. Sometimes you have to take the table too. I LIKE tables and I got a great little wheeled steel serving cart a couple years ago. It's where my NARB forge lives. You see lots of hammers and ones with broken handles often turn into freebies if you buy other stuff. Ball peins for not much are on my buy list, I'm also a big fan of 32 oz. Drill hammers, they're really useful. I pick up any smooth faced hammer 16oz and up within reason, I don't need too many: 8,10,12 and 16lb. double jack sledge hammers. Heck, I have too many 4-6lb. single jack sledge hammers too, all but a couple from yard, garage, etc. sales and many free because the handle was broken.

Funny coincidence happened a couple years ago at an estate / garage sale a few years ago was a bucket of hammer handles in a nice array of sizes, plus a paper drum of double jack, pick and axe handles the exhausted lady wanting to close up, have dinner and rest gave me in a take it or leave it bundle on the hand tools I wanted. Got the two folding tables too. Spent $5 for several hundred $ worth of really useful stuff.

It's a worthwhile way to spend a few hours on weekends. You get to meet folks and pet their dogs too. It's a win win all round.

Frosty The Lucky.