Flame in t-burner..

[MJforge]

Hello all..

New here, and very excited about all the wealth of knowledge in one spot. In saying that, i sure wish i knew of this place BEFORE i attempted to put this forge together lol. All i see now is all the things to do different!

So i had originally planned a larger, rectangular build. That was months ago though, and i got to noticing steel prices lately, so i decided to just go with an old freon tank i had sitting around. I already had the double burner set-up and plumbing, saw someone on youtube had done it, and, well, here we are. Massive overkill i know. Hey, i can always turn it down, right? It looks ridiculous, and kind of embarrasing : / Anyways, it is what it is now, here is the issue: On its 2nd fireup, after about 15 minutes, i noticed some occasional wiffs of flames up in the t-area. It seems to be running okay, there are occasional "coughs" id like to diagnose, but lets start with the safety issue first. 

2" kao and Mizzou refractory, 6 inch nipples, .035 tips, pretty standard stuff. I recall not putting teflon tape on the mig tip, but i figure a leak there would not be a wandering flame? Theres room for the burner to go up another inch or so, could be too low in the forge? Was at about 5psi, bouncing back and forth between burners, valves just cracked open, refractory was pretty orange, was it just too much heat?  Also of note, this is running outside with occasional breezes. I looked for answers before i posted, didnt find any, hope you all dont mind the question. 

[Glenn]

You were going to invest it anyway, so put the cost difference between todays steel prices and the old Freon tank into a kitty for tools you will find later.

Welcome to the site. 

[MJforge]

Thank you. And yeah, i guess i could look at it that way. 

[M.J.Lampert]

warning teflon tape and propane don't mix if necessary to seal find a paste threadlock 

also please give a few pics of it running

and READ THIS FIRST we are happy to help you frost will be along shortly to let you in formally but till then welcome to the addiction and keep safe (hold steel on cold end and hammer hot end ) (don't set self on fire) (etc.,etc.)

M.J.Lampert

[Mikey98118]

There are gas rated Teflon tape; it isn't the same is the regular tape used for water.

[M.J.Lampert]

1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said:

gas rated Teflon tape

ok good to know

MJForge iwas thinking back to tuning my frosty t and if i remember correct that is a problem of too rich remember frostys numbers are a ballpark you need to tune it more from there raise the tip up. if still too rich trim1/16th off and try again also be sure to clear the mig tip after cutting frosty or mike may say other than me though so don't take me word for word

M.J.Lampert

[MJforge]

Thank you all. I guess my thinking/worries first off revolve around the shear ridiculousness of this thing lol. Im not daunted, not going to give up, i'll look back at it someday with a chuckle i suppose, and be better off for it. But until i nail down a CONCRETE THIS TIME plan for the next one, im concerned that thing is even safely usable, first and foremost. So thats my first question. To my thinking, the heat potential of it is pretty high for such a small area, and thats just got to introduce all kinds of variables. Even if i get the burners properly tuned, then what?Just more headaches because of the bad design? 

The flames showed up after it was warmed up, thats my first clue. Exactly what is burning, where its coming from, i dont know. I cant imagine flame coming back up the burner, but i have no idea, maybe it can? Sure dosnt seem possible from my limited experience thinking. Excess fuel being ignited? Well, i'll shutup and let the experts-expert. 

But... Next one must-have list: Proper burner to size ratio, loose all these fittings for more stable set-up, and a more durable refractory layer. I wheel this thing outside for use, and im noticing how hard that is on it. Thanks again, i really appreciate it!

[Mikey98118]

Note that, while there is gas rated Teflon tape, It's not recommended; too easy to end up with shreds of tape clogging your gas orifice.

[MJforge]

Ahh, so thats the reason, thanks. 

[pnut]

I use Teflon tape for the regulator to hose and regulator to bottle connection but I clean the threads and fittings with a little bottle brush every time I disconnect it which is every time I use it. If I didn't have to disconnect it every time I'd use a liquid sealant. 

Pnut

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard MJ, glad to have you.

Stop with the self deprecating banter, you've done a pretty darn good job for not really knowing what you're doing. Yeah, lose most of the hardware hanging on the burners, the ball valves need to go on the manifold way back from the burners. If you keep the hoses as far from the openings as possible you probably don't need copper tubing, propane hose is designed to be fire resistant and has a distinctive smell if it's getting hot.

Your burners look good, they're too far into the forge so the nozzle ends are getting hot enough to pre-ignite the mix in the mixing tube. 

Without seeing them burning I can't guess how well tuned they are.

Burning back to the gas jet is NOT a matter of fuel air ratio. The cause is two fold, you already know what one is but I'll confirm it. YES your forge is too small for a pair of 3/4" NA burners, back pressure will peak, stopping the flow so the flame will burn back in the mixing tubes, this stops combustion in the forge which relieves the back pressure so your burners start burning again. This can be very quiet and subtle, yours is on the subtle side, OR it can be loud like a chainsaw on sheet metal or send large puffs of flame out the forge openings. 

The other cause is because you fell for the mythtaken notion that the lower the psi burners run the better. This is an urban myth, started inadvertently by Ron Reil who took low psi as a goal and spent a bunch of time and effort getting his to run at darned low pressure. 

I've been making T burners since I developed this adaptation of a jet ejector for a burner, I'm thinking 30-35 years? No I just used my fingers to count and it's got to be 40 years. I had my first one working before the internet went public.

Anyway, none of my T burners operate properly at much less than 9-10psi. and I'll turn them up to 14psi. if I'm needing a screaming HOT fire cave for something special. 

You have have more than 2x too much burner, pull one of them off and save it for your next forge. One 3/4" T alone is a nice amount of overkill for a freon tank forge. Save the one closest to the opening you use, it'll let you work without putting more of your project in the forge than necessary. 

Pull the burner back until it's barely penetrating the refractory liner, just inside the shell. The thing to watch out for is is the flame being blown back out the burner port in a jet. A little flame exiting around the burner is no problem but if the flame exiting the nozzle is hitting the liner in a way it's being deflected back then it's a problem. Just slip the burner a LITTLE bit deeper. By LITTLE I mean a little bit, a 1/4" is a big adjustment. Sneak up on the optimum distance to insert the burner. Don't get carried away looking for IDEAL, just get it working properly. Okay?

While you have the ceramic blanket unpacked from the burner and burner mount to adjust it out, age your burner so it is NOT aimed straight at the far side. Floor in this case, it's like filling a cup by squirting a hose straight down in it. The flame is hitting a pretty close floor straight on and dispersing in 360*. Unfortunately the curve of the cylinder represents greater resistance than running along the floor to the openings. What tends to happen is excess back pressure which inhibits burner performance.

If you aim the burner so it's hitting the far side at an angle the flame will flow around the cylinder with less resistance, meaning lass back pressure so the burner will breath easier and burn more strongly. As a last benefit the flame forming a swirling pattern in the forge will spend longer in the chamber transferring ore energy to the liner which in tern radiates it as IR onto your project to do useful work for you. 

Make sense? Give these a try and please feel free to give me a shout, we'll get that puppy up and screaming hot in no time. You'll have a better handle on these little machines when you build your next one. 

You did good. No bull.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[MJforge]

Thank you Frosty, and thanks for the welcome! My "Frosty moment" was all that i had dreamed of, and more! 

So yes, that all does make sense to me.  I have enough material to fill the extra burner hole, and i'll just go in slight adjustments on the depth and and angle of the burner, and go from there. I'll get to work on it, and report back. Thanks again!

[Frosty]

You're welcome, it's my pleasure. I have to wonder, if responding directly to people is some kind of exciting "moment," maybe I should charge a fee. I have to say it's refreshing to help someone who can follow plans and has good shop skills. It worries me how many young folk have never used a hammer let alone know how to tap a hole.

Pull your burner all but about 1/4" out of the liner. You can form the liner itself into a flare. This adjustment doesn't need to be crept up on incrementally, unless it starts BLOWING flame out the burner port. A little flame is okay though it SHOULD induct air into the forge through gaps. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I sometimes lament the loss of the old car engines; because a lot of American youth learned that you have to follow the instructions EXACTLY to get it to work, deciding to use parts that won't fit---just because you have them; or you saw/heard of them used on a different engine, or didn't worry about not having a timing light or a carb rebuild kit...

They even had "beginner's classes" like "small engine repair" in Middle School---7th&8th grades!

[Mikey98118]

You do understand that only us other other old guys have a clue abut what your saying, right?

[Frosty]

Agreed. Heck, I developed the T burner so you didn't have to follow the directions exactly but close is just too demanding for too many.  <sigh> Measure? You're just being mean! Straight?! It's evil to dictate orientation, I'm cancelling you!

Old? Who's old? I don't feel old till I stand up and walk or lift something or. . . Just thinking about it makes me sleepy. Later.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

My point exactly!   Now how do we modify the current educational system so that people can learn to not think that their way is as good as anybody elses when it comes to making things that could fail in *interesting ways*?  (Did everybody go to school with kids with interesting scars or missing digits---I remember a classmate with a 345 deg semicircle scar around one thumb...)

[Leather Bill]

My friend and I were in "biginner class"but not at school,they were self taught in his dad's barn.  Lots of good memories from resurrecting flat head Fords and stove bolt 6 cyl chevys.  His dad alowed us to use his tools but would only answer questions we went to the house to ask.  On occasion we talked him into coming to inspect something.  After we welded the steering from another vehicle onto a 41 chevy it would turn left when steered right and vs vs.  His dad just shook is head, laughed and went back to the house when we asked how to fix it.  Turned out to be kinda intertaining when we and our friends drove it around country roads.  

[Frosty]

I LIKE your Grandfather Bill. I suppose you figured the steering  out before you killed anybody. Yes?

Did we go to school with the same kids Mike? One my age had an impressive scar in his left cheek. He and some friends found a box of ammunition in an old shed and were "firing" them in the fireplace of a house under construction. They'd build a fire around the cartridge they wanted to fire. One evidently tipped over and the casing went in his open mouth and out through his cheek. I think missing: fingers, toes and burn scars were the most common graduation scars. An un-good number didn't make graduation. Oh wait, there was one jr. highschool incident here a metal shop student got his long hair caught in the drill press and it yanked a palm size piece of his scalp off his head. It took a good 2 weeks to get the blood stains washed out of the floor. The instructor caught a serious ration for not 86ing the kid sooner and the kid was banned from shop classes. He had the rep of doing the opposite of what he was told and NOBODY got to set foot on the shop floor without passing the safety and basic knowledge tests.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Leather Bill]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

I LIKE your Grandfather Bill. I suppose you figured the steering  out before you killed anybody. Yes?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

We never fixed it because that required buying parts.  Transplanted engine and tranny to a different car.  That was a good thing with cars built in late 30s to mid 50s,parts were interchangeable between cars from same mfgrs.   It was a fertile time for tinkers but a large % of population where I grew up were farm labors that couldn't afford tools.  My friend and I were fortunate to have access to tools and mentors.  Our families were poor by comparison to those living in cities but field workers were poor beyond what the poorest of poor are today.  You might say poverty in the region worked to me and my pal's benifit.  When a car could no longer be relyed on, owner didn't have the means to fix it, funds to have it fixed,and no credit,they were forced to buy cars from used car dealers who wouldn't give them much on trade in.  We bought cars for what dealer offered for trade.  My older brother and I lamented cars we sold but a 40 Ford Coupe was one we regretted most . 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

My first car was a 1936 Chevrolet Tudor sedan. I bought it off a farmer for $25 who had it sitting in a field with a broken R rear axle shaft. Went to the junk yard and bought an axle for $50 and put it in right there in the field. My brother towed me home with a chain and found out the brakes still worked. The speedometer worked and showed 36,000 something miles. I put a new battery in, checked the distributor cap, points & rotor, carburetor and added 5 gal of gas to the tank. It started right up and I drove it back & forth to school and around town for "cruising" on a restricted license. Then one day a guy who wanted to turn it into a "hot rod", by chopping and channeling it, made me an offer I couldn't refuse. He paid me enough that I was able to buy a 1950 Chevrolet 2 door fastback with enough left over to install a Crane cam & kit and dual Weber side draft carburetor's. Boy was that Chevy fast.

[Mikey98118]

 

they must have seriously gone down hill during the war years, becuase my 46 Ford coup was the worst piece of xxxx I ever touched! One time my younger brother was working on it, and he started screaming with fury; he was a guy who was very proud of his self control and his skills as a mechanic; it was the only time that car ever made brought a mile to my mug

[MJforge]

Now i see what this forum is all about lol.. Points, what are those? Thats gotta be metric or something lol. I turn 50 in a few months, so kind of in that middle ground between, well, im not really sure anymore actually, "things" are progressing so fast.. Building Heathkits with a soldering gun with my dad as a kid is a great memory, i might still have my timing light around somewhere, but then the internet coming around when i was maybe 20 seems like just yesterday. All i know is, one year does not equal 1 year anymore. We pack so much into 12 months now, its amazing. Thats good stuff, thank you all for the stories.

So ive not gone far with this thing, its been storming every time i can spend some time with it outside. I did get the hole filled, refractory is dried, and just had time tonight to take a few pics. First 2 are with the burner slightly tipped to the side, second is tipped as far as coupler allows, looks to be hitting at a better angle. Kinda tough to get a good pic of the flame that shows color, its pretty crowded in there. Just thought id check in and see if that helps any. Thanks.

 

 

[JHCC]

Certainly looks better; let us know once you get forging.

10 hours ago, MJforge said:

Building Heathkits with a soldering gun with my dad as a kid is a great memory

We did a couple of those as well; one stereo amplifier particularly springs to mind. 

[MJforge]

Thanks, and will do. And thats cool, us too.