LemonAden Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 My home is a beautiful 1812 Colonial with a very ugly and modern entry door on one of the sides of the home. I was planning for several years to hire a carpenter to build me a new door around these gorgeous strap hinges/pintels I found at Brooklyn Restoration in CT (amazing place if you have never been). I purchased them prior to ever thinking I would get in to forging and have run into a small problem I was hoping for some advice with. The carpenter was originally going to build the door to the size of the straps but we had to cut that size down a bit and now the straps are too large. He suggested I take them to a smith and get the ends that rest on the pintels cut refit to the pintels because I am not yet comfortable doing that myself (the straps were expensive and apparently very old), but then I thought that rather than cut them back I could personally fire up my coal forge and hammer them out a bit at the curve to make it a wider curve which would reduce the overall length of the straps to fit the door (and I think it would make them look a little nicer). The problem is that I have no idea what kind of metal this is or if I can even successfully do this myself and I also don't want to lose strength in the metal. Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated and a photo is included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 If they are *old* then they would be real wrought iron and it can be a bit tricky for someone starting out to work with as they must be worked EXTREMELY HOT but not burning. If they are just old; then probably a nice clean mild steel, easy to forge and might even be worked cold. If they are modern then A-36 and pretty easy to forge---just don't quench them when you are done let them cool normally! I agree that reforging them to make the curve take up more length is a great way to do it. I'd suggest laying out the door size on a piece of cardboard and figuring out what the change in shape should be to fit it before lighting the forge! One way to tell would be to do the spark test ON THE BACK to see if it's WI or MS as they spark differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 Thanks for suggesting the spark test Thomas. If I were able to do this on my grinder and take a video when its dark in my shop would the video be enough to help determine the metal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 WHY? You can tell it just by looking. Examples of spark test results can be found online and in pretty much all beginning welding books. If you want to get into smithing I suggest you start collecting samples of known materials, LABEL THEM, and make a spark test comparison kit. Real wrought iron sparks might be confused with some high speed steels or cast iron but won't be confused with mild, medium and high carbon steels----and your straps are NOT HSS or CI! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 I will certainly start collecting some scrap so I can learn to identify different metals. I am new with this as a hobby. I grabbed a photo with my grinder on the back side of the strap and am attaching it. The sparks looked more orange to me than yellow and from looking at some diagrams online I am seeing mild steel but not sure of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 WI has very dull sparks with little to no "sparkler" or "firework" effect... Actually, there is an image posted by Jim Coke and Another FrankenBurner in a thread here that explains it better than I can. TP, is your recommendation not to quench A-36 to avoid warping or accidental hardening? I know A-36 is a strength spec and doesn't indicate composition, butare there actually batches of A-36 that could actually be damaged by a quench in water? By that I mean cracking at the time of the quench or breaking when mounted. It's an honest question. Lemon, to me that looks like mild, not WI. Probably more modern than than the old mild steel TP is talking about. Hard to say from the still frame, but I think it's safe to say mild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Mild steel or perhaps A-36; the bursts and colour are distinctive as not being real wrought iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Mild steel or wrought iron,they are easily bent cold. I would not heat them. I would heat them to put a nice black linseed turps, and beeswax finish on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 Thank you! For this piece I would prefer to do it cold, probably with a wooden mallet or bat if possible. Will certainly heat for the linseed and beeswax! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 A-36 can harden/crack in a water quench in thin sections---why it can be a pain for leaves. Harder under the hammer too. Every once in a while I get some old zilch carbon scrap out of the scrap stream and it's amazing how nice it works! As most of the "low C" stuff I work these days is A-36; I just normalize everything. (Actually toss it on the ash/cinder pile under the forge...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 also check out bending forks and scrolling wrench. If you have a post vice to hold the forks, this is a far better way to fit them to your door. No dings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 Good idea! I do have bending forks and a scrolling wrench. No post vice yet but I am looking for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 I have some of the old steel too, it is indeed quite nice to work. Soft like WI, but not prone to splitting. Thanks for the clarification. Lemon, It'll be nice to have put your own personal touch on the straps for your door. While you have it hot, maybe add your touch mark somewhere? You may not have made them, but you did modify them..? Maybe you make the next pair for your next door? Sounds like a fun project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 a bench vice will work fine in this case. When you bend a rectangular or square crossection you deal with edge bend and twist. Edge bend is what you want. Twist means the leaf won't lie flat. I can help you with that if you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 9 hours ago, Frazer said: It'll be nice to have put your own personal touch on the straps for your door. While you have it hot, maybe add your touch mark somewhere? I might just have to do that! I have been planning this door for 5 years so it means a lot to me and I would love to put my mark on it! Looking at the entire strap I do believe it is something I could strive to make some day. I only began this hobby so that I could make things like this and other farm/garden/home type things so I am pretty excited to see what I can do going forward! Anvil, thank you very much for the offer to help! I will shoot you a PM when I am ready to start the project. I asked my carpenter to bring me a cardboard cutout of the door so I can have it ready before I do any work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 You may want to make some hand forged nails to attach things to the door. It should increase the pride factor by several fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 Ah yes, hand forged nails! If you want to use them to mount the hinges, make them long enough to go all the way through the door and clinch over on the inside. Doors get a lot of push, pull, slam, etc. which can work forged nails loose. To prevent them loosening they were driven all the way through and clinched tight. It's the origin of the term, "Deader than a door nail." Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 21, 2020 Author Share Posted September 21, 2020 Just posting a quick update on my project. With some of your advice I got the courage to modify my door straps. To make the modifications match on both straps I used painters tape to hold them together and heated them in my forge. I used the horn on my anvil to move the bends and curl them inward, reducing the overall length of the straps to fit my new door size. I also made a mixture of linseed oil, beeswax and turpentine, heated the straps in my kitchen oven and then painted on the mixture to blacken them. The mixture made them look nice but you can still see a bit of red through it. I am not sure what the red it? Maybe rust? It came through in spots where I heated to make my bends. I might keep it showing or fix it with any suggestions you all might have? Overall I am very happy I was able to do this. No touch mark stamp yet so I can't put that on it but maybe for the next project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 Nice. The red is because you did not have a consistent heat when you applied the hot oil. It looks like it was too hot and smoked off. Do you have a forge? The red could be residual rust. A consistent heat may deal with it. A full red, wire brush, then as it cools to a black, oil it. It will smoke off to a grey if too hot and look wet if too cold. It takes a bit of practice to get a uniform finish. You may want to refinish the whole hinge. And before applying the oil, don't hesitate to hand wire brush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 21, 2020 Author Share Posted September 21, 2020 Thanks for the suggestions. The red came from after heating them on the forge before bending them. I didn't brush it off prior to applying the finish which I should have. I will try and wire brush it off and then refinish it tomorrow. Do you think putting them in my kitchen oven at 500 degrees would be sufficient for uniform heat? I won't get consistency on the forge. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 Lol, if your wife won't mind the linseed oil, turps, and beeswax smoke off coating her oven. Someone may know the temp. I have read it, but basically I've learned by trial and error and no thermometer. The black heat range is a large one. I have refinished quite a bit of old hardware etc. Thus my suggestion to refinish the whole thing. Take your time, at this low temp you cannot hurt it. Learning is priceless. I've done it with a torch, both rosebud and welding tip. It works, but it's a lot harder. The heat is just too localized and that red shows up far more often. It's quite sensitive to temp differences. A forge, coal is my preference but gas works. My order of preference would be coal forge, gas forge, oxy/acetl or oxy/prop. If you don't have a forge, do you know a smith who you could visit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 So It took me about 6 times of blackening and then cleaning before I got it where I wanted it to be. I tried the linseed/turp/beeswax mix and hated it. I tried heating the metal to blue and then using just linseed oil and hated it. I also tried using chemicals while the metal was cold and hated it. Then I tried heating them and painting with used motor oil and what do you know, they are exactly where I want them to be! I am going to rework the pintels a little but but otherwise I am happy with everything. Hopefully our door is finished soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goods Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 Sorry, a little late for this project, but for others, pine resin may give you the finish you were looking for also. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemonAden Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 Thanks David, by resin do you mean the pine tar stuff they sell in those metal cans? Do you heat the metal before application? That is very good to know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goods Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 Yes, pine tar. You can apply it to cold metal the heat over you fire until it starts smoking. Then, wipe any excess off. You can apply it to hot metal also, but wire brush any scale first. Timing for the right heat can be tricky. You don’t want to burn the tar off, but it needs to be hot enough to penetrate any surface texture and “cure” for lack of better terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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