First punches

[wirerabbit]

Hey all:

My latest forging session has me convinced that I need to make some tongs so that I can place shorter stock into my steel wheel charcoal forge. I'm a beginner, so my tongs will not be anything very big. Even if I use a large piece of stock and fashion both sides from a single bar, I still will need to make a hole for the rivet.

Right now, I do not have any punches, so I thought I would make one. What is a reasonable  rivet size for such tongs? 5/16"? 3/8"? 1/2"? I don't have rivets, so I will be making stock out of what I have. I guess I can drill out the rivet hole, but that would be missing an opportunity.

I just checked my scrap bucket and all I have besides mild steel is a few hex keys and a brick chisel or two.

I really need to find some high carbon stock somewhere.

Taylor

[Glenn]

The size of the rivet depends on the size of the tongs.

If you want to make chisels, choose the size stock that matches the size chisel you need.  If you want the known steel with a known method of proper heat treatment, then purchase or order that type steel.  If you want to guess at the steel, and guess at the heat treatment, then put your hand into the scrap bucket and guess at the steel you want to grab.

Coil springs from automobiles and trucks will work for chisels. The heat treatment is still a guess, but you can come close or at least get an idea of what works.

Bottom line is dies it have to work ?  Are you going to sell the tool ?  If yes, then buy new steel with known heat treatment.  Personal use or practice or experimenting, then scrap works.  If it fails, then you can try again.

[Frazer]

I usually use 5/16" round for rivets. You could use 1/4" as well, but if you size your boss accordingly, 5/16ths will suit most of your tong making needs small or large. Well, what one might consider to be large is somewhat relative.. The largest pair I have is for holding 1" sq. and those are pinned together using 5/16ths.

I recommend making yourself a rivet heading tool so you can peen one side of the rivet outside of the tongs. Then you can drop it in place while hot and finish the rivet.

I use coil springs for all my punches (and chisels) since it's easy to find. Quench the last ~25% of the tool (the end that will be punching the hole) and temper to blue/purple.  I don't see any reason why you couldn't use the body of one of your chisels to make a punch. However you would want to do some experimentation with heat treating that steel since it could be many different alloys. Heck, you could probably get by with a mild steel punch, but you will have to straighten/clean it up every couple holes, which is a pain.

Your first pair of tongs will probably be better for picking things out of the fire than holding them while hammering. Especially if it's flat stock. Even after I made a few pairs I still used vice grips to hold things while I was hammering as they held better than what I could make at the time. 

I just wouldn't recommend holding round stock with vice grips. Sometimes it comes out and you end up with a large 3rd degree burn on your forearm... learned that one the hard way..

[wirerabbit]

Thanks, Frazier. That's a practical answer. I have a few old counter sets that are about that size. I'll make a  small drift out of those and a punch out of the old stone chisel.

I'll have to research a rivet heading tool, but I think I understand the concept. Yee haw!

 

Taylor

[Glenn]

There are two parts to a rivet header.  The top part is for forming the new rivet head. The bottom part is for keeping the existing rivet head round so it is a little more pleasing to the eye.  

When you have a store bought rivet it looks like a dome on a stick.  You put the stick end up from the bottom through the hole and "set" the rivet by putting a monkey tool or setter over the rivet stick and giving it a whack to close any gap between the top and bottom parts that are being riveted together.  You then round the stick with a hammer to start the rivet head. Finally you use the top riveting tool to form the rivet head into a nice smooth dome.  

If you do not use a bottom tool, the rivet head (dome) is against a hard surface and will flatten some.  With a bottom rivet tool the depression in the tool supports the dome and keeps the rivet head in the dome shape.

[SLAG]

Glenn,  et al.,

Those rivet heading tools are also called   "rivet sets".

Try using that term when searching for those tools on the net. It should give good results.

I bought a full collection of different sized rivet sets, years ago, on the fourth day of a hardware bankruptcy sale. Most of the tools had had been sold.

And not much was left.  But there they were.

I  "stole" them,  for about ten cents on the dollar. No one seemed to know what they were, and I was not telling.

They have been surprisingly useful over the years.

Just Sayyin',

SLAG.

[Frosty]

Allan wrenches and chisels are good steel for struck tools, both are designed to take impact and remain strong. Heat treatment is in question so make a couple test coupons and test before heat treating the tool. 

However, if you're using an allan key or store bought chisel, punch, etc. you can just grind your punch and if you're careful not to overheat it you won't need to heat treat it. Do not worry grinding is perfectly blacksmitherly, we won't laugh or think less of you. All of us who've been doing this a while have at least one grinder, I have several. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I have a top tool for dressing rivets---ones over 1" in shaft diameter...From back in the old days when they riveted girders and boilers and ship hulls together.

[wirerabbit]

12 hours ago, Frosty said:

... Do not worry grinding is perfectly blacksmitherly, we won't laugh or think less of you. All of us who've been doing this a while have at least one grinder, I have several. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Don't let this get out, Frosty, but I was planning on using my bench grinder before you made the suggestion. I don't want the forum to realize that they let in a hack.

Now, I wasn't planning on heat treating the punch as it will be sunk into hot metal. I've read and I assume the punch will anneal with all the heating and slow cooling. Is this not the case?

I'll forgo the rivet sets for now and just make a jig to head one side of the rivet stock as Frazer suggested. I found a simple example on the interwebs that used an old hammer head and a drill press. Seems simple enough. Still looking on IFI for more examples. Have run through the tong section for the first time, so I have a good idea on what I should make first for holders.

Thanks everyone,

 

Taylor

[ThomasPowers]

It's a HackRabbit!   

There is a saying that: "A master blacksmith never uses a file or grinder---that's what apprentice and journeymen blacksmiths are for!"

The fractional horsepower electric motor sure replaces a lot of people in a typical shop...

[Frosty]

You know what happens when you hit hammers together? The CRACK sound hardened steel makes when it chips is NOT the sound of the steel chipping, it's the chip breaking the sound barrier. Oh sure chips aren't aerodynamic enough to maintain supersonic speeds for more than a few feet but YOU are within a few feet. 

If you use an old hammer head be sure to normalize it before striking it.  I'm not saying not to use an old hammer head, I pick up cheap old ball peins at garage/yard/etc. sales to make other tools from. Just be really careful not to strike it while hard.

 I make rivet sets by driving a HOT straight piece of round or whatever bar stock onto a ball bearing. I have a little saddle for my anvil to hold bearing balls, it's just a piece of 1/2" x 3/4" strap stock bend on the ends to fit my Soderfors snuggly enough it doesn't bounce off. The saddle has a couple holes started so the bearing ball rests almost completely supported. If I heat it up and set the ball into it it would be perfect but I haven't needed anything that strong or precise yet. 

Anyway, I cut a straightened piece of coil spring and grind the end flat, heat it to yellow stand it on the bearing and give it a dead(ish) blow with a heavy hammer. You don't want it to bounce you want it to drive down, a sharp or HARD blow is more likely to bounce so if you need to hit a second time you may have to go find the bearing ball. 

The bottom set gets the beginning of a drill hole because the bottom set can be harder to gauge where the bearing ball is and striking while it's HOT is important. Gotta move quick on the bottom tool, it's in full contact with the anvil or vise.

26 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

The fractional horsepower electric motor sure replaces a lot of people in a typical shop..

Does this mean a traditional blacksmith doesn't use fractions?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Chris Williams]

It just means that they didn't cut up the horses. 

[wirerabbit]

4 minutes ago, Frosty said:

You know what happens when you hit hammers together? The CRACK sound hardened steel makes when it chips is NOT the sound of the steel chipping, it's the chip breaking the sound barrier.

 

Hee Haw. That's why you should never hit two hammers together very hard, right? Of course I'm learning not to hit the anvil and instead hit the forge-able metal on top. I'll try to do the same with the rivet maker.

Keep me safe.

Taylor 

[ThomasPowers]

TradSmiths would more likely use dividers and travelers rather than the fractious numerals.

[George N. M.]

Chris:  Look up St. Eloi, the patron saint of farriers and blacksmiths, regarding cutting up horses.

[Chris Williams]

Wow.  It saves bending over, I guess!  I doubt the next horse resisted any.