Forge HELP

[RToons]

I have built, rebuilt several forges just playing around. I have a forge built within coal grill I got for $20, put in 2" simwool, sprayed with sealer and applied 1" of refractory. Then used old forge made from Military milk can, with 2" simwool, sprayed with sealer, appliqued 1" refractory and covered with liquid glass and inserted into coal grill with xtra simwool between grill & milk can. I put pressure to 7psi ay first, then 12 psi after heated up. Some suggested to put pressure to 25-30psi. This makes me unsure if this is wise?

I get steel white hot and can move and shape without any issue. Where I have failed every time was to attempt to weld 3,4,6 pieces together. I use truck spring, files, rebar, 1950's lawn mover blades, black pipe, etc.... I have them same dimensions, clean, welded together and heated to what looks like white hot. I add borax, reheat and hammer lightly to weld together. I have never gotten all pieces to stay welded together?  I was talking with elder men and most told me a propane forge will NOT likely get to high enough temp with 1 port supplying propane.

They suggested I should consider a coal forge both for the joy and hands on when utilizing a coal forge.  They suggested I would get better results once I learn to manage heat on steel and would have a more enjoyable experience.  Any Thoughts? I have a truck break drum, steel poles, pipes, sand and all I need to build a coal forge.

Other issue is I have been thinking about a power press made from a manual hydraulic motorcycle jack . I want to use this jack because it has a foot press and a quick release knob which appears to be what I want.  Any thoughts on how to configure to utilize as a forge press?

Note: flame is to rear of forge to avoid flames breath out front. The breath goes out back and I lightly cover 80% with a piece of simwool to keep moist heat in.

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

It looks like the insulation between the layers of your forge is not coated. I strongly recommend covering it to avoid inhaling fibers that will be airborne. I can't watch the video (network error) but the still looks plenty hot and not knowing what your burner is, can't comment about the psi. I run my forge at 25 psi without any problems but the fuel consumption suffers.

As far as a coal forge a brake drum is really too large for a fire pot. I suggest reading several of the threads about JABOD forges, they are easy and cheap to build and work just fine for coal or lump charcoal (not BBQ briquets). Still pictures of your gas forge including the burner will be better than a video. As far as welding in a propane forge, I don't know who told you it won't work but they don't know what they are talking about or their forge isn't built right, I can weld in mine with a single burner just fine and if I crank up the flame it will melt steel.

[Buzzkill]

It looks like only the back half of your forge is getting up to good temperature.  If you are indeed getting steel white hot or close to it that is plenty of heat.  Truck springs can often be 5160, which is notorious for not being easy to forge weld to itself.  Rebar is a bit of a roll of the dice and something I would not recommend for beginner forge welding.  If the lawnmower blades are from the 1950's they are *probably* a simple alloy which should weld ok, but that's not a guarantee.

If you did the sequence listed, then one of the biggest issues I see is that you waited too long to flux.  You do not want to wait until the steel is white hot to apply the flux.  At that temperature scale (oxidized steel) will form immediately when you remove it from the forge before you can apply the flux to keep the oxygen from getting between your pieces.  You should apply flux at a much lower temperature - more or less as soon as it will melt and flow into the spaces between the pieces.

If you're just learning to forge weld then start simple.  Use just 2 pieces of known steel and work with that until you know how things should look and feel before moving on to more difficult materials. 

Many of us continue to successfully forge weld using propane forges.  They can get plenty hot enough if the forge and burner are constructed properly and the forge atmosphere is neutral to slightly fuel rich.  Whether one burner is enough depends on the construction of the forge, the size of the forge chamber, and the burner being used.  I will say that one single port burner *can* be enough.  With the forges and burners I've built I don't exceed 20 psi, but that doesn't necessarily tell you anything about *your* setup.  25 to 30 psi may be ok or desirable or it may not.  The real question is whether you are getting the heat you need to do what you want to do.  Again, if you are getting white heat then that's more than enough to forge weld.

It's somewhat easier to get forge welding temperatures using coal, BUT it's also easier to burn your steel, You do need to learn good fire management, where to place your steel in the fire, how to judge when the steel is hot enough without being able to see it clearly, when to reduce the air flow so you can make sure the steel is heated all the way through without burning or melting it, etc.  It sounds more difficult than it really is, but compared to dialing in a temperature with a propane forge and waiting until the pieces are thoroughly heated there are some additional challenges.  If you do decide to try coal, like IF&C, I recommend you check out the JABOD topics here on the forum.  Brake drums were popular, but you really can build a better forge easier and probably cheaper than you can convert one of those into a forge pot.

If you have the opportunity to work with someone who is accomplished at forge welding for even an hour or two it will be well worth it.  You can then see what they do and ask questions.  They can also point out to you things that don't look right.  In other words you may learn more in an hour with guidance than you will in a week or more of trial and error.

I have some serious doubts about turning a hydraulic motorcycle jack into a forging press.  To be an effective press you need a lot of both force and speed.  If you don't have enough force you can't move much metal.  If you don't have enough speed your metal will cool off too much before you can move it much.

[RToons]

2 hours ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

It looks like the insulation between the layers of your forge is not coated.

You are correct. The simwool between grill & milk can are not treated. The do not get exposed to much heat and never to flame. Just there to use up xtra pieces and make a better top/botton insulation. The break drum is around 1' across and 6" deep. I figure after adding sand MAYBE it will work OK. I will search for JABOD forges to get ideas. These forges are they within IFoirgeIron or external like Youtube?

Kinda excited to got the lump coal way because as the elder guys from 85-90+yrs old say it is a hands on experience that produces results with less danger as compared to propane gas as long as used in open air or with proper ventilation.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Mod30
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[RToons]

2 hours ago, Buzzkill said:

It looks like only the back half of your forge is getting up to good temperature.  easier and probably cheaper than you can convert one of those into a forge pot.

If you have the opportunity to work with someone who is accomplished at forge welding for even an hour or two it will be well worth it. 

I have some serious doubts about turning a hydraulic motorcycle jack into a forging press. 

Correct, the back half is getting metal white hot with intent to avoid flames coming out the front. I have applied borax After metal was white hot. I will pay attention to your comment when to apply. The lawn mower blades were found in junk store. Still in package it indicated contains carbon in creation of blade? Got 2 for $5 so could not go wrong, maybe?

I believe I should turn to coal for many aspects of forging with most being involved more with heating process. I will look at JABOD ideas. I am looking for active forgers in my area but only found 2 and they purchase metal already made to cut/sand/heat treat without any hammers. Not my idea of forging-to move hot metal to form desired shapes!  Where is fun in that?

The elders I visit in their machine shop do not actively swing hammers /forges anymore  but have good insights. They still  do metal fabrication, rail road track testing, make specialized parts for rail road & local govs. Only because they want to stay kinda busy &  they have done this for 50+yrs and no shop is still open to accomplish these tasks locally.

You are right with bottle jack from motorcycle jack stand. Speed is only as fast as my foot and the force will only be as strong as my fake knees will allow.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Mod30
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[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

It doesn't matter that the simwool is not in contact with the flame. Micro fibers will separate and float in the air so it should be at least ridgized, better to be coated with refractory. If you want to take a chance with contracting lung disease that's your choice. I suggest reading this.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/53239-ceramic-wool-insulation-safety-alert/

 

BTW: Have you read this yet?  READ THIS FIRST   It will help you get the best out of the forum with tips like using the quote feature  The quote feature and some tips will help staying under the moderators radar.

 

[Buzzkill]

If the elders are nearby, you can still invite them over for dinner or drinks when/if that's allowed in your area.  If you've got a hot fire, flux, an anvil, a hammer, and some steel to weld together they may still be able to look over your shoulder and point you in the right direction.

Steel really isn't that expensive in small quantities.  It may be worth it to purchase some so you know the content and can read  the specifications for forging, heat treating, etc.  High carbon steel alloys tend to be a little easier (lower temperature) to forge weld, but it's also easier to overheat or burn them.  The 10xx series would be a good place to start.  For mild steel you could go with 1018.  If you wanted to try a medium carbon steel then 1045 would be a good choice, and for high carbon steel anything 1070 through 1095 would be reasonable.  Are you just trying to practice forge welding, or is there something specific you are trying to make?

There are several JABOD threads on the forum.  Here's one of them:

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/55467-mark-iii-jabod-forge/

 

[ThomasPowers]

The issue with the untreated wool is not fire or flame; it's exposure to your lungs.  If you can see it then you can breath it; NOT SUGGESTED!

Many people weld with single burner forges. It depends on the burner size, pressure it runs at, atmosphere control, volume of your forge and how well insulated your forge is.  Is that refractory the inner liner?  If so it may need quite some time to heat up to welding temps.

As for gas pressures:  Can I drive my car at 160 MPH?  Hard to give a correct answer not knowing the details of my car isn't it? With the information you have give the answer is a definite Yes, No, Maybe.

I use both coal and propane forges.  I do my welding in coal as my propane forge is not designed/armoured for forge welding.  I know it gets hot enough as I have melted steel in it accidentally.  It's handy to have a coal forge for outsized or oddly shaped pieces that won't fit in my propane forge; but getting good smithing coal out here tends to be difficult and $$$.

Is there an ABANA affiliate near you?  We used to carpool 2 hours each way to get to meetings when I lived in Ohio and it was sure worth it! IIRC there is a very active Pittsburgh group. They might know someone local to you.

Sounds like you were talking about knifemakers and not blacksmiths or even bladesmiths.  Stock removal is a valid technique for knifemaking and less likely to have issues with, burning of steel, grain growth or decarburization than forging blades.  However forging is a lot faster and FUN, stock removal is a real grind!

[Mikey98118]

3 hours ago, RToons said:

They suggested I should consider a coal forge both for the joy and hands on when utilizing a coal forge.  They suggested I would get better results once I learn to manage heat on steel and would have a more enjoyable experience.  Any Thoughts?

I learned to gas weld with oxyacetylene torches. I was quit good at it, and prefer it to to TIG welding. But if I recommended learning torch welding over learning TIG welding to youngster, it would be a complete dis-service. Torch welding is the past,  TIG and plasma torches are the future.

On the other hand, if these guys are more willing to teach something you need to learn, but  on coal forges, bend with the breeze and learn; just don't learn their preferences along with it

[RToons]

Like you I learned many ways to weld. As a burner in a scrap yard, mechanic at Fruehauf trailers welding tie down with arc welder & worst of all MIG aluminum welding but best was TIG  braze welding. In any case my wife kinda forced me to computers. Now retired I enjoy the smells & visual pleasures of the shop. These elder gentlemen have insights I let behind for computers of which I did not know I missed so much.  In any case I will stop rambling.

I have developed many questions with forging that Forge in Fire show skips to the determent of all watching. Like after heating & before oil/water dunk you should cycle blade in air to cool down several times. After dunk in oil/water blade should be place in controlled heat source ~400 overnight then allowed to cool down. I am not sure where to take these considerations and determine if these are in fact true? Then the handle making? I can say I am looking to developing knowledge & skills.

One major issue is I have eye issues that hamper reading to a significant level that glasses cannot correct. So I relay on face to face discussions with individuals or watch videos/TV 

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2020 at 3:15 PM, ThomasPowers said:

The issue with the untreated wool is not fire or flame; it's exposure to your lungs.  If you can see it then you can breath it; NOT SUGGESTED!

I will get wool sprayed as you suggested. Knife making from scrap metal is my objective and handle making is a desired skill. I will look for ABANA in my area.  Not sure what you indicate by stock removal?

Edited May 4, 2020 by Mod30
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[Buzzkill]

Stock removal(in the case of blade making) is just grinding or filing away everything that is not a blade.  It involves no reshaping the metal by mechanical impact.

You may want to spend some time in the knife making section of the forum.  There are some really good threads there, including things like heat treating and handle making:

https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/13-knife-making/

Making knives from scrap metal can be done (and is done) of course, but any unknown metal is "mystery metal" and should be tested to see if it has the properties you want before you spend the time to make anything out of it.

[ThomasPowers]

Stock removal: Blades that are made by grinding and are never hammered on.  It's a common term.

Normalizing is a good method of grain refinement in many knifemaking alloys.  Fine grain is good as it's stronger.

Now the temper at 400 degF after quenching would depend on the ALLOY used and is a bit high for many simple alloys where 325 degF might work better; but it's based on the ALLOY used!  (Hence the issue with scrap steel blades; if you don't KNOW the alloy you really need to do the testing to see what it requires to make the best blade possible.)

Getting it from quench to tempering as fast as possible is mandatory.  One of my students quenched a blade late at night and decided to temper in the morning.  When he went back to the shop the blade was sitting on a shop rag on the bench in 3 pieces as the quenching stress had time to break it.

Also how you temper varies greatly, I have a set of tempering tongs that I like. Sometimes I will do a snap temper to the temp I want the edge to temper at and then go back and draw the spine with tempering tongs to give it more toughness.

Have you read Steve's book yet?  "Introduction to Knifemaking", Steve Sells

[Mikey98118]

11 hours ago, RToons said:

Like you I learned many ways to weld. As a burner in a scrap yard, mechanic at Fruehauf trailers welding tie down with arc welder & worst of all MIG aluminum welding but best was TIG  braze welding. In any case my wife kinda forced me to computers. Now retired I enjoy the smells & visual pleasures of the shop. These elder gentlemen have insights I let behind for computers of which I did not know I missed so much.  In any case I will stop rambling.

"Hill? What hill. I don't remember any hill!"

In more than forty years of metal work, I learned, that knowledge, like gold, is where you find it. Some of my most valuable welding lessons, came from salesmen (!!!), rather than my text books. You just keep right on rambling. there are youngster reading this who can pick nuggets from you pan

[RToons]

Built my first coal forge using junk table, CAR break drum, clay non clumping kitty litter, shop vac and using GAS ball value to control air flow [had extra from propane forge].  I must learn to control air flow better because I went through about 1/4 bag of lump coal to heat up 3/4" rebar. I thought the steel would get hot quickly but it took quite awhile? Maybe my lack of knowledge utilizing lump coal  and placement of coal. 

I ate a lot of small HOT ash and the cover I used did NOT stop these tiny HOT ambers. OUCH!  See pictures attached and ALL positive input would be appreciated. How to better arrange coal, how much coal to use at a time, etc...  Sounds like a dump question but I ask it anyways.

This is my 3rd knife made forging from junk metal. My better half of 45yrs said I am getting better with each attempt. Makes me feel good and that is encouragement to continue. Although I have cut and burnt myself which she calls me a half blind [MD], deaf, forgetting, TIN man [RA issues]!  First 2 from propane and this is 3rd but, 1st from coal.

I failed at stacking steel and getting them to stick. BuzzKill made suggestion to apply borax before WHITE hot and that is the type of comments I am looking for.  All input is appreciated. As I said I have serious issues reading books & white papers and enjoy & learn from pictures most. I have always been a hands on & IMAGE processor to learn how to do things.  Again I THANK all that provide guidance, opinion & thought. FROSTY gave me tips on handling a hammer to avoid the next few days of pain  after a few hours of forging fun.

[Glenn]

Remove the screen cover, add more fuel and a lot less air.  You want very little if any flame above the fuel.

To make the fire deeper, use house bricks to stack around the outside of the drum to contain the fuel.

[RToons]

Thank you Glenn, The air I was unsure about. I have a gas ball value I can adjust air flow . When I had little air it did not seem to burn lump coal to a glowing level.  I do not understand your suggestion to use bricks? I have no clumping kitty litter all around the outside of drum to keep in heat so not sure what bricks would accomplish?  Should I replace litter with breaks?

Question: I heated rebar, pounder into shape, grinded to get shape I wanted and reheated to dunk in oil. Should I do all the hammer work, dunk in oil then grind into final shape? Thinking about cutting side of metal.

[Frosty]

Bottom blast is NOT charcoal's friend everything in the forge will catch fire and burn. You might try filling the drum until you have a trench maybe 4" wide give or take a little. this will limit the amount of charcoal that can burn at once. Deepening the trench by stacking brick as Glenn suggests will bring the heart of the fire to table level where you can access it easily. 

MUCH less air! Aim the blower away from the tuyere if necessary, charcoal hardly takes more than a breathy puff, less than a birthday candle puff.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[pnut]

I can't figure out how to get to the clipboard on my new phone so I will just suggest you check out the topic, a simple side blast forge (just a box of dirt) 

Pnut

[RToons]

Frosty, is the picture below what you were suggesting?  EXCITED:  1st time I was able to weld together 11 pieces of  various metals.  it was 2.5"W x3"Lx2"H and using the coal forge shown below they STUCK and did NOT come apart-WoooooWeeee.   Tomorrow or after I recover from using hammer I will reheat and shape into a knife.  I must figure out how to get into hot coal once it gets longer & will not fit into hot coal I now have? Any suggestions ? I do not want to cut car break drum but maybe I will have to. Or as PNut suggested use the ground to build a trench packed with sand.  That could work.

In the picture they are fire bricks cut to fit & a piece of refractory I made a seat for propane forge to rest metal on while heating.

[Frosty]

That's about what I was talking about, close enough. Now if you lay or stand on edge, a couple bricks on the sides so it makes a "trench". Picture a couple semi trailers parked next to each other. Yes? You may need to fill with whatever you have or just garden soil so air and fire doesn't escape under the trench bricks. You don't need the fire pot to be round, it doesn't need to have air holes under all of it either. A couple long pieces of brick just short enough to fit in the drum with maybe 3-4" between them and the space at each end blocked so the whole trench is maybe 6-8" long is another good shape. 

Anyway, the bricks on edge around the fire pot will let you pass long stock through the heart of the fire or move it back and forth to hear long sections. It will let you pile charcoal deep enough to heat your steel properly without burning it by the bucketful every few minutes.

Your steel will heat down in the fire, NOT laying on top so you need to be able to cover your work with fuel. There are many good reasons NOT to heat lots of steel at a time, especially long pieces. You can only do enough work on maybe 6" well enough to refine the grain growth (crystallization) at a time. Heating it without working it damages the steel. When it's time to heat treat it you simply slide it back and forth through the fire. This lets you keep a close eye on EXACTLY how hot it is so you don't get surprised like happens when you pull a piece out of a BIG fire. Not all areas in a fire are the same temperature, and the bigger the fire the harder it is to know what's going on under the pile.

Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky. 

[ThomasPowers]

In general you want to have your metal horizontal in the fire in the neutral to reducing zone. NOT at an angle that tends to put the part most likely to burn in the zone most likely to burn it.

I used a bottom blast brake drum forge for my billet welding for several years burning coal and not charcoal.  How I improved it was to take a strip of *plain* sheet metal 4" wider than the top to bottom distance on the wall of the brake drum and bend it into a C and slip it inside the drum and let the spring pressure hold it in place. Next I marked where the top of the brake drum wall was on the strip opposite from the opening of the C and took a cold chisel and cut out a mousehole from where the top of the wall was up a couple of inches. This let me push a rod out the hole in back to heat a place in its middle.  You want the work piece BURIED in hot coals;  so the fire and fuel must go higher than the brake drum wall. 

To save fuel, (charcoal burns fast), fill in opposite sides of the forge pot to get a U shaped trough.  You should now be able to get a deep fire that burns less fuel and be able to stick the workpiece through horizontally without pushing a lot of stuff out of the forge. 

[arkie]

Rtoons, find a video or two that shows Japanese sword making masters at work.  The trench like charcoal forge they utilize is what Frosty, Thomas and Glenn are trying to describe to you.  Then you will have your "Ah..hah!!" moment.

[RToons]

Arkie, I have watched how they make the metal from ore and it was very cool. I also watched several masters and 1 thing they all have in common: having 2 assistances using sledge hammers as the master turns the metal. My 2 sons deserted us and my better half of 40+yrs encourages me but will NOT swing sledge for me! 

I will spend today on computer after the day of heating & hammering yesterday. I usually takes me a few days to recover and be able to swing a hammer with any metal moving results.  Thank you for your assistance.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Mod30
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[arkie]

Glad to help.  Aside from watching the masters forging, the conversion of ore to metal is indeed fascinating to watch....HOT job!!

[RToons]

I scanned videos on coal forges and almost all have metal above the hot ambers and not directly in the coal embers.  As Frosty suggested the metal needs to be in the hot embers of which I have to agree.  Youtube is good for general ideas but most are not the greatest for practical applications for a poor retired cheep individuals like myself.

I plan to cut about 3" wide and 1/2  way down the break drum where the end result will be as the blade grows it can be put directly into ambers and NOT above them.  If working on a small blade I can use cut out metal to be placed back into cutout to preserve heat.  I will cut it on an angle so when I need to place it back it will slide into place and not fall out.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.