materman Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 New and used anvils are way out of my price range, so I am thinking about building one. The plan is to weld together two pieces of 2" thick by 8"x16" mild steel I have on hand, and then build up a hard surface on the top. I could just bevel the edges and butt them together and weld the exterior seam up, but am wondering if I would loose any rebound with the seem in between? Another thought was to put the tworld pieces together on the bottom and then space it at around 3/4" on top and weld the V groove up. Another thought I had was to put some of that welding powder (forget the name) that they weld railroad rail together with for I have some, in the bottom of the V groove and set it off, and then weld up the upper part of the V for anyone that has welded up a deep V groove will know it is a pain especially at that thickness. Any thoughts and advice much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thematrixiam Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 It's hard for me to picture what you're saying. But that's just me. I am more visual. If you made up a MS Paint sketch I could probably see better. But either way... From what I have gathered, mass underneath your blow is what you want. The more the better. Any splits from welds can cause issues and separate the force in ways difference than just a solid piece. Others may chime in about proper welding technique. I have read of people stick welding on a harder surface to mild steal and then cleaning it up. They would use that as a top face for their anvil. I probably will be doing that for mine when I get more time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
materman Posted April 17, 2019 Author Share Posted April 17, 2019 Sorry if my post is misunderstanding, but the plan was to make a anvil with a top 4" wide by 16" long and 8" high.will probably weld on a horn as well, but again didn't know what kind of performance difference I would expect leaving the two halves unwelded or welded. Will post a pic my be this evening for I am on the road right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thematrixiam Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 No. It's not you. My brain sometimes just shuts down unless I draw things out. 16" high is better than 8" high, I assume. Others may offer better advice though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 I'll PM you for clarifications and we can talk Materman. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Have you read the method used by Ernie Leimkuhler? https://metalwebnews.com/howto/anvil1/anvil2.html Frankly I wouldn't be trying to duplicate a london pattern anvil and go with an Italian style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
materman Posted April 17, 2019 Author Share Posted April 17, 2019 Thomas, thanks for the link, for I haven't read it yet. As well I have no clue what the difference is in a London pattern and a italian style, but I will go find out. I seen a nice 346 pounder locally but I thought the $1800 dollar price tag was too steep. Even seen a 142 lb one they wanted $1200 for, so figured I would just make one for the time being till I find a decent deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 If you haven't already done so, you may want to look through this topic: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/52308-a-collection-of-improvised-anvils/ By my calculations each of your plates weighs nearly 75 pounds. On end that would give you a 2x8 inch working surface with a good amount of steel under your hammer with just one plate. Two inches doesn't sound very wide, and for some things it is desirable to have a little more real estate to work with, but my suggestion would be to mount a plate on end and use it for a little while. You can always weld them up later if the mood hits you. In the meantime you have a working anvil and can possibly make items that will finance the anvil of your dreams. As long as you work the metal hot, your mild steel work surface will be harder than the item you are hammering on. It will wear or deform faster than a hardened surface of course, but unless you miss a lot of hammer blows it will take a while to significantly affect that area. If you already have the hard surfacing rods you could even lay a couple layers down and see how you like the results. The point is if your goal is to get hammering on hot steel with a reasonably good anvil then you already have 2 of them that just need to be mounted securely at the right height for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
materman Posted April 17, 2019 Author Share Posted April 17, 2019 Thanks buzzkill for your insight, much appreciated. Yes I have looked through the link you provided and agree they would work as they are. I will admit my intent is not to start banging metal at first chance, and I know it might sound strange to most, but I will find great enjoyment in just getting my bare blacksmith shop setup to my spec's. All I have is a 20x20 shed I just poured concrete in and am in th process of putting in the wiring and lighting. About all I have for blacksmith tools is 3 old pair of tongs, a vice, and a few hammers. I do have a cutting torch, welder, drill press, metal lathe, and other tools to assist me in my experience, as well as a bunch of think outside the box imagination and creativity. Really wasn't wanting to bang metal till I have my own designed press and power hammer up and going, but did want to know if a DIY anvil would loose rebound if it had a unwelded seam in it. I did get home and did measure my block for I was guessing with my first past and found my guess to be way off. The blocks actually measure 2"x6"x19" so it wouldn’t be as high as I thought. An after thought though, would it make a better anvil if mounted on a couple pieces of 4.5" shafting? Do have 4' of it laying in the yard. My intent was to make a more traditional looking anvil that would function like one as well which is probably a little hard to achieve, maybe even wishful thinking, but I thought I would through the question out there. Again appreciate all input for you guys have been around this stuff way more then I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 If you wait until you get everything perfect before you get started you will be waiting a long time indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 Stand one plate on end and get working. The face only has to be as big or a little bigger than you biggest hammer face. 75# under the hammer is better than 150# spread out sideways under the hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 I strongly suggest you learn basic smithing before you design and build a press and or powerhammer! What would be your opinion if someone told you they are going to design and build a car and will do it before they know how to drive? Even if they are a superb machinist and welder I would still have some doubts about it. I have seen folks design and build air hammers and ending up with a painfully slow cycle time as they had not used or even seen one running at full out and doing several hundred BPM! Same with presses, the billet was no longer at welding heat by the time pressure was being supplied. Also many a smith would be drooling over a 20'x20' shop as many are using a 10'x10' or even smaller ones. Does you shop use sliding barn doors so you can open it way up? That and a good porch roof can add in a lot of space for forging. I have 2 20'x30' shops; one is dirt floored with open gables for the dirty shop, (forging, grinding, welding) and one with a concrete floor for a clean shop, (finishing knives and woodworking and machining.) I've started scrounging stuff for the next addition, I'd like to put a 20'x20' carport on the end as shade is a major requirement when working out here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 I have yet to use a power hammer or a press for forging. From what I have gleaned from others that have, if you try to use those devices before you learn how hot steel moves you will just make mistakes faster and be less likely to be able to correct those mistakes due to the amount of metal that moves using those machines. Having said that, if you are dead set on combining those two pieces for an anvil then it's your time and materials so you can do whatever you would like. The best results would be from full penetration welds, but that's very time consuming to prepare for and then accomplish. If I had those plates and felt I must make one bigger piece of steel I would probably not take the time and effort to do full penetration welds. I'd probably first check with machine shops or other places I could possibly get a single bigger piece to avoid the time and cost of welding the two pieces together. If unsuccessful there then I'd do a full perimeter weld. If the both plates have matching holes I'd bolt them together using those holes and cut a decent channel between the two plates around the full perimeter and get to welding. I'd still use it on end, which with your updated dimensions would give you a 4x6 inch working surface with 19 inches of steel under the hammer. I'd probably hard face the intended main working surface if I already had the rods laying around, grind it flat and get to work. Combined those two pieces should come in around 130 pounds and that's not bad at all for starting out. If you are creative with your mounting you could use your anvil in more than one orientation and build in different features in different places. You have a total of 6 sides to work with and their corresponding edges. There's nothing wrong with modifying each and every one of them to be usable for you. However, you may need to get a little hammer time in before you know which features would serve you best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 One thing you could do with those is to reserve one end for "anvil" use and make the other sides into an improvised swage block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
materman Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 Buzzkill I appreciate your input referring to my original question. Not dead set on using then, been hard pressed finding anything better. Maybe I will go a different route until I find something more suitable. Wish I still worked at a junkyard. Maybe I will just use the 4.5 inch shafting I have, on end for one for the time being. Thomas, I know it probably sounds like I have bit off more then I can chew, but I love a good challenge. Was only going to go with a press for I do press bearings and bushings on for a mechanic shop and figured iwould design it so I could take the dye off and use it as duel purpose. But then I thought about it and thought why not just make both hammer and press all in one machine (my own design). Plan on driving the hammer with hydraulics as well for I am familiar with it and think I can get better control with it. As well want to incorporate a better clutch and brake system then a tire, but this is all for another thread. As for the 20x20 shed, it is actually a carport with the ends put in it. All my life all my sheds have had dirt floors. I fought groundhogs for years in this one, and finally last month was able for the first time to pour a concrete floor. Many would be appalled to use it, but yes others on here would consider it their dream shop, which it represents to me. Nothing I would want to brag about and indeed lots of room for improvements, but a whole lot better then anything I've ever had. Forgive me if I have come off errant, bostfull, of full of myself, for that is never my intentions. Just came looking for answers and appreciate the answers I got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caotropheus Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 materman I went through the steps you're going now, trying to do much more than necessary to start forging. I have real anvils but what I use the most is this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLsgFjkBQtg Actually, the single bit of chisel would have been enough to forge (without the horn), just a simple support or buried partially in the soil. So, to start forging I suggest you use that 4.5 inch shaft and the mild steel slabs as upset blocks and to straighten long pieces and learn what you want from an anvil (weight, length, width, horn shape, hardy tool size, london pattern, european pattern and so on and so on...). If you get to the conclusion you really want to make your own anvil, send my PM and I can help you with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Materman a four and a half inch shaft will work fine. How long is it? Remember don't get bogged down trying to make everything perfect. Just get started. It doesn't take a lot of equipment to learn the basic blacksmithing operations. Time forging is far more important to building your skills than anything else. Good luck and remember this is supposed to be fun. Pnut (Mike) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 10 hours ago, materman said: Maybe I will just use the 4.5 inch shafting I have, on end for one for the time being. Good plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 I once was forging out of a collapsing chicken coop that had a thin concrete wash over the dirt floor and had terrible ground hog issues, I used my small cannon to fix them (2" bore). IIRC I've posted that story here before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
materman Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 21 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: I once was forging out of a collapsing chicken coop that had a thin concrete wash over the dirt floor and had terrible ground hog issues, I had to set traps to get mine,three just last year.a 2 bore would do a number on the meat lol. I try to give mine away to people that will eat them. Here is a pic of the destruction they can do. Picture was taken after filling in the burrow we are glass. The hole was 4 feet deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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