Recommended Posts

I was on a website group the other day and a video was posted about forging/forming a half penny scroll.. 

The last time I had to make a half penny was some 20 years ago..   The method I used back then is different than most use today.. 

I prefer this method as it doesn't create a cold shut which both of the videos I had watched did create..   Every walk by a gate with Half pennies and they are missing??  I have..  Usually from a cold shut and simply because of the freeze thaw, and rusting.. They pop off..  

I was asked to make a how to on the method and so sat, (well stood at the forge) and made some samples..    I did film the making of them but sadly the footage is useles as I was using a new protective film for the camera lens and every piece of footage was useless though it looked ok through the view finder.. 

There are 3 main methods that I know of.. 

1, The penny is formed and then just brought back on itself to create the transition from penny to scroll.. 

2, basically the same as number 1, but now it gets welded when brought back on itself which in theory should stop the cold shut if welded correctly.. but still leads to rusting and the weld popping.. 

And 3. The formed method which should leave no place really for the crack to propagate from thus rusting is not a problem.. 

This method is the Non welded one 3.. 

Here are the results..  of 3 different scrolls.. 

20190208_141301.jpg

20190208_141944.jpg

20190208_142014.jpg

20190208_142018.jpg

20190208_143238.jpg

20190208_145826.jpg

20190208_145829.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Hoping you make another video to demonstrate your preferred method, especially since — if I remember correctly — I was the person in that discussion who asked you to make the how-to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John I was so bummed that the footage was no good.. Completely blurred on the horn/side view which was the most important.. 

I'll get to doing another one sometime soon..    It was fun making a scroll again.. Last time was a long time ago.. It's the reason for the extras in the photo..  Took 5 to get consistent results..   

I also had to change stock size as the penny swage was designed for 1" stock and I started with 3/4"..    I'll shoot for this week sometimes.. 

The video will only be about 5 -8 minutes long so easy to edit.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather than films or gels to cover the lens, took for a lens filter. The ones I use are glass and have protected my prime lens from damage on many occasions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glenn they don't make filters for these lenses..   They are a 3D camera.. ( 2 lenses per unit) vs the 1..    I love 3D so bought a bunch of these sweet little HD 1080p cameras.. 

Even the commercial 3D cameras if they have 2 lenses don't have external filters.. They actually build the filters into the software.. . 

I have all sorts of gear for the Panasonic GH5 but rarely use the camera for filming since I love the 3D... 

Their not cheap cameras so keep looking for some way to protect the lens from burning and scorching with welding flux..  I noticed the Set hammer video had some blurring only to look at the Welding filter I used on it to find it was scratched and had flux all over it..  I then cleaned it but was a non starter..  

And from both the monitor and the film looked clear.. wasn't till I filmed that I noticed it wasn't clear.. Old eyes or just being in a rush.. You choose.. :)  

I just contacted a company who makes tempered glass films to go over such things as computers and such.. I'll see what they can do..  

I was thinking maybe microscope slides.. 63mmX36mm is the size needed..  something I can just tape on and then throw away once ruined..  Ideally something glass also.. 

20190209_204611.jpg

20190209_204552.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or just talk to any custom glass place, that small a size should be easy enough for them to cut off from scraps.

Some experimentation may be required, I don't know what camera you're using or what its autofocus mechanism is.  Some cameras don't like the AF sensors being covered by anything as it causes them to misfocus- not enough to notice on-camera, but it'll show in the post-production.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NO auto focus.. Fixed focus  with digital zoom..   Was one of the requirements I was looking for.. 

I have several of the Glass for cell phones.. they actually have a membrane in them that also adds some distortion to the image.. 

I was thinking of something that is just off the shelf..   It's only been 3 years since I looked last time.. I settled on Welding lens glass, but decided something a little more fitting would be nice this time around.. 

I have glass on hand for cutting.. Clear sheets but really love to find something that I can just slap on..  If I can't find something I'll more than likely go that way.. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JLP, look for something that has a LOCA-based attachment. Stands for Liquid Optically Clear Adhesive. There's no membrane, and once the adhesive is UV cured it's distortion-free. I have it on my cell phone and it's literally as if it's not there. Might be a route you can explore if you haven't already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They make large square optical glass filters that slide in a holder. When I say large I mean medium format , I think 4x4 inches. You put them between the lens and the subject. I haven't priced filters for about seven years but I think they have a pretty broad price range. You could also shoot through any piece of glass witout ttoo much distortion. The closer the lens to the glass the better.

If you do just use glass make sure it is in line with the focal plane of the camera.

I used to take pictures at the aquarium near where I used to live by putting the lens against the glass and you can't tell the glass is there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also adhesive and camera lenses aren't something I'd recommend.        

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greetings JLP,

       I too had not made a half penny scroll in years . A friend of mine just finished a very large railing project that included well over 200 scrolls. Our blacksmith group had a meeting at his shop to celebrate the competition of the job.i got the bright idea to make him a trophy to crown him king of the half penny scroll . I made it with a true penny insert and of coarse I had to do something different. Notice the diagonal stock and the transition to round . It was fun to make . Try one on the diagonal it’s a challenge. 

Forge on and make beautiful things 

Jim

 

6C894097-5E15-4B7A-A668-7CBE8A3B9744.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beautiful work JIm..  Wonderful to see... You did a taper and rolled it all the way up?  Great transition from scroll to leg..   Very nice..  Your buddy must have loved it.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes I did taper all the way. I also formed a v grove pocket for the penny. Indeed a challenge. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jen. How are you?   Is there a flat piece of glass already covering the lenses?

If so, maybe you can use the protective film made to protect the glass on iPads.

I have used this product for other than its intended use. It can be cut to shape with scissors.

Ipad size looks big enough to make a handful of lens covers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/9/2019 at 9:53 PM, pnut said:

They make large square optical glass filters that slide in a holder. When I say large I mean medium format , I think 4x4 inches. You put them between the lens and the subject. I haven't priced filters for about seven years but I think they have a pretty broad price range. You could also shoot through any piece of glass witout ttoo much distortion. The closer the lens to the glass the better.

If you do just use glass make sure it is in line with the focal plane of the camera.

I used to take pictures at the aquarium near where I used to live by putting the lens against the glass and you can't tell the glass is there. 

I"ve seen these large filters and actually looked into this early on.. I've been using these cameras now for a few years..  I could not find anything smaller than like 4X6" or something along those lines.. In fact nearly all the filters I had seen where for the older portrait model cameras with the bellows.. 

Maybe you have another source..  I only need them to be 63mm x 35mm..  so finding something in mass production would be the most cost effective as then they are easy to come by and can just order online vs traveling to the place..  

the glass slides are clear glass rounded edges all ready.. come in 38X75mm.     The extra length isn't a problem as they will just hang over the ends some..  for a dozen of them it's like 35.00... 

Also there are square filter holders for regular cameras.. Cokin is the brand name I think.. 

On 2/10/2019 at 10:09 AM, Scoot said:

If so, maybe you can use the protective film made to protect the glass on iPads.

I have used this product for other than its intended use. It can be cut to shape with scissors.

Ipad size looks big enough to make a handful of lens covers.

Scoot, thats what I did with this last shots. Good thanks.. You? . Because the item is not directly against the glass the adhesive stays cloudy.. Which looks clear to the naked eye..  

Films, all have adhesive at least the ones or screen protectors which I have looked at....  some have adhesive just around the edges.. Problem then becomes cutting them as they are made from tempered glass..  

The company I contacted for customs ones cut them with laser or water jet.. 

Really the microscope slides looks to be the cheapest solution and fastest to implement..  I would just tape them on with scotch tape and when worn, cut the tape and apply a new one..  I looked at making a holder for them but we will see.. 

The lens filters that are like 4X4" would would work with some modification but ideally simple is good.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jlp those are the filters I was thinking of. You can get a scrim clamp to put on a tripod to hold them. If you can't find anything searching for scrim holder try gobo stand. It's short for go between. Like between camera and subject or light and subject  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heres another example. This was for doors in a log house. I think there were 10 doors. I showed these to Jen a while ago. I have the layout and how i do drawings and a layout stick to be able to match all now or in the future. Lol, she didnt like the rolled barrels. But they are about my favorite of all the hinges ive done.

DSC_0039.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anvil, Yup.. Rolled barrels.. just not my thing..  

Those are very nice hinges though..   Very whimsical..  Where is the other half..  Both pins are from the top..  Did you make a different bottom set? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to think that too, but not in a long time. The time difference between the two is minimal, thus cost difference is minimal.So each is just a detail in my bag of tricks. One fits this situation, the other another. Cutting and fitting them together is far more critical than how you roll the barrel.

If you rotate the bottom hinge 180 degrees in the plane of the door, it becomes the bottom hinge of this  pair on the door, and to fix the pin deal, just remove it and put it in from the other top  ;) .  There was actually a third. In the middle was a butterfly hinge to match. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fit and finish of hinges to me is the utmost importance.. I was told once by an old smith that the way you can tell the smith was good was to hold a hinge up to the light coming in from behind,  opened and you should not see any light coming through the joint..   I brought this one step further when I was in my heyday and added "Nor when closed or anywhere in between.".. 

A accurate rolled barrel is  just another skill set.. I said I have a preference..  It doesn't mean I never make rolled barrels.. It just means welded is what I prefer.. 

The customer is always right.. Even when they are not..  If I want a stronger hinge for a given area then they are always welded or if they are a thinner cross section then welded..  Or if historically they were welded.. H, HL, Butterfly, Cabinet, etc, etc.. 

From what I have seen rolled hinges are a more modern approach.. Modern being someones choice time wise.. (Thomas P.  would probably have some idea) I've seen old journals of wrapped hinges as early as 1900 in the USA. but earlier than this it has been rare to see other for the smallest of hinges in the resource books in the USA (Blacksmith journal or Blacksmith, wheelwright) I'm not saying it wasn't done..  I just don't remember seeing anything earlier. Which doesn't mean much because I can't remember what I ate for breakfast.. 

A well fitted hinge is a wonderful thing..  And one I consider a basic skill set.. Well that is if you are into colonial type hardware.. What anybody else chooses to do is their own business.. 

Well, yup on the hinge pin,, i was going by what the picture shown..  Good thing they weren't pinned together like earlier sets.. :(    LOL..   this was a joke..  Well I thought it was funny..

I thought that would be your answer not assuming anything,  but again I was just going by the picture..   I have seen non matched top and bottom hinges so was not an out of line question since they had that nice upwards sweep with the pins both at the tops.. ..  I figured maybe they were for arched doors.. 

I also like a hinge to have a matched eye outside diameter.. Unless it's is part of the design dynamic/element..  

here is a design that I was only okay with..  But was given a sample and told to make them to the sample but to the size wanted..  The hinge pin was pulled out of the plate and then a bar was welded to create the round cross section..    these were rolled eye.. 

Here is a set of pictures of the last hardware I had made.. Was what closed the door on the shop all those years ago..  I used to do some decent work.. These were supposed to be a double hinge.. with 3 per door.. The stages of how they were made were layed out for the customer to see.. The one with the hole in it was the starting pattern which started life as a flat bar, slit then opened..  This was the master..   They are sitting on a standard width paper towel..      I really should finish these some day.. Just for my own satisfaction..  I hate seeing them not finished.. 

I don't know where the hostility comes from but glad to contribute.. 

Salem Cross Inn carriage barn (1).JPG

Salem Cross Inn carriage barn (1).png

Salem Cross Inn carriage barn (5).png

IMG_0687.JPG

Snapshot 50 (4-7-2011 8-35 AM).png

IMG_0682.JPG

IMG_0680.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have Donald Streeter's book on colonial hardware, you will see a tool he copied from an early colonial piece that rolls barrels mechanically. This book is contemporary and he was a decade or more before me. He is from your part of the world. Also another big book "colonial ironwork by Sonn?" that shows many examples of rolled and forged barrels. Same in Europe. This conversation reminds me of that book. I'm unpacking, so will keep an eye out for it. It's my belief that rolled or forge welded was a choice made by the Smith to fit the situation.

I started with colonial hardware, but other than an occasional barn or rustic business doo da it is not popular in my world. I then spent some time with a fine Sante Fe Smith named Tom Joyce. He lined me out on south western colonial hardware. A hot item. From there I hooked up with a custom hardware outfit in my community. I did her custom work for a long time.  I did Far more than hardware for her, but hardware was the main stay. After a year or so she presented me with s job and I worked with the client and sid my own design. She introduced me to a few furniture makers. The main guy lived in Colorado Springs, but sold his work in Sante Fe. He dealt with a few galleries on a regular basis. He would send me a drawing of a period piece, supply a drop list for drawer/ door hardware, fasteners and whatever and a due date,,, after a few jobs. Good money and good experience. No room for error as any crudeness and I'd be gone. He kept us both busy. It was a very successful and creative time.

Yup, half penny and snub end scrolls are tough. I still sweat bullets when I make them. It takes a lot to be able to make even one with no flat spots and a symmetrical "penny". And then to match them throughout a house full of doors is even harder. Keep it up, it takes time. 

No anger, dont read something Into what's not there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could never get behind Streeters book.. He developed a lot of machinery to make hand production of hardware faster..  I know a guy who both talked with Mr Streeter and worked with him..  The guy Said Mr Streeter was a fine smith.. Back then it was about producing hardware cheaply enough (fast) yet able to make a dollar that drove the market..   One of the guys said that he could forge a bean pattern latch in 12 minutes... Another smith said why so slow..  He was doing them in 8.. 

So, what does this really mean..   The faster you can produce hardware or anything for that matter do you charge less....   LOL.. 

  Did you use his machine to form your eyes? 

Own 3 copies of Sonn's book.. Its what I give to people to figure out what they want..   While Sonn's book offers a good assortment.. It's limited in volume.. Not only that.. Even in the book He mentions he picked examples based on certain criterion..   It's the reason why I look at Trades or industrial books/mags..  When they show a picture of what they are selling it will show 50 different varieties..    Old mail order catalogs also..  I love old mail order catalogs.. 

like said before the percentage is less than welded until you get to a certain point.  But anyhow, it's all semantics..  We live today looking back on what was or was not done.. 

When we look at time frames people have a tendency to look back and see a lack of sophistication in the level or quality of work done..  for me its the exact opposite.. The level of sophistication comes from the fact that there was NONE.. 

The work performed was simply a day on the job.. Nothing special..   That's how I look at all this stuff..  It's nothing special.. Its just work..  That aspect is what drove me and still drives me to do better work..   Of course ideally to become better at anything it needs to be done daily.   Just like I did back in my teens and 20's.. 

You have worked for or with many a fine smith.  Wonderful... :) 

Which method do you use for your penny scrolls? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Jen, I dont use jigs nor mechanical devices to roll my barrels., or anything else in my shop. I used his tool as an example to point out that roll'd barrels were common across time. I certainly have no idea what proportion of one vs another are. The only reason I brought this up is you implied a forged barrel was more "period". I don't accept that.  But it's not worth an arguement or a debate.

And yes, I've worked with many good Smith's as well as a few who were not so good. One way or another I learned from all of them. I very consciously chose to do this. I call that period of my life my contemporary version of being a journeyman smith. I can think of no better way to learn so many things about our craft. And as a bonus, it really helps in not developing techniques that are not truly good practices. If you work with little or no input from others it's far too easy to incorporate a bad habit and have no idea it's bad. Much less why its bad.

Nor do I accept that Smith's of the past

4 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

The work performed was simply a day on the job.. Nothing special..   That's how I look at all this stuff..  It's nothing special

It's the same as today, go into a job shop and it's a daily grind, work for Whitaker etc and there is absolutely no feeling of "nothing special". Basically if you dont believe that what you do is special, no one else will. 

Let see if I can do a quick and dirty "how to" do a half penny scroll. I only know one way, so that a start.

1: Hang enough stock over the edge of your anvil to make a square cross section.

2: Use a half faced blow to forge down the transition to your dimension.

3: Taper the parent stock as much as you require and champfer edges if you choose.

4:  Forge the square into a round. Remember, you can use your cross pen to move material out to accomplish this as well as forging it "in. The cross pen is a great way to heal those flat spots around the transition. Start here to roll the penny to get that nice vee and not a cold shut, as you mentioned above. Also, using the cross peen you can tune that critical transition where using a hammer to scroll it is too much. It can very gently move that penny just where you want it. Dang, there goes a "secret"!  ;)

5: roll it and scroll it.

I do step 5 on the anvil and this is the most critical, so light blows and do only small increments. Then I do the rest with my bending forks.

I made a hardy tool to start the scroll. It has a curved top, a concave area below the top and the top overhangs this and has a sharp edge. I'm sure you have seen similar. At a very frustrated time with this scroll, it helped, but after a short time i quit using it. It became easier, and gives me more control to just do it by hammer in hand.

Hope this helps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.