Steven511 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I'm doing a sculpture art extra-credit project in school, and decided that it was a perfect excuse to try making my own anvil. I'm doing it for art class, but I will also be testing it's rebound, weld strength, etc against a U&B. I came up with a design loosely based on the Austrian style, but more going with whatever looked proportional and what shape steel I can get. the top is 3 inch wide on the horn, step, heel, etc, but tapers out to a 4 inch body and 5-6 inch feet. I was wondering if this is a decent design? What would you guess the weight to be? According to my steel supplier's estimates I believe it to be around 120lbs after shaping the horn. Any consideration, contemplation, observation, rumination, examination, speculation, or any other form of thoughtful alliteration is welcome. The materials used are as listed: 4in x 10in round mild steel bar (body) x1 3in x 8in round mild steel bar (horn) x1 3in x 1.5in x 12in mild steel flat bar (heel plate) x1 3in x 1.25in x 12in O1 flat bar (face plate) x1 ~6in x 1in x 12in rail tie plate (feet) x1 3in x 2in x 4in mild steel flat bar (support/weight) x5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 How do you plan to get a full penetration weld between the top plate, the heel plate, and the body and support for the heel plate? And how do you plan on getting a full penetration weld between those and the step and the step and horn? How do you plan on quenching to harden the 1-1/4 inch thick 01 face plate? If I read this right the body will be a 4 inch round bar approximately 10 inches long. That seems to make the "waist" of the anvil rather small. The length of the anvil is 3 inches wide and 22 inches long with the foot of the anvil being just 6 x 12 inches. The weight of the top of the anvil could make it easy to tip over. You have a good idea, and have put some thought into the project. Look at the profiles of other anvils and notice size of the waist and the amount of mass under the face. One easy way to prove the anvil design concept is make the anvil from wood. Glue and nail the pieces together and give it a bit of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Have a look at this video, it may give you some ideas. And no, it is not your ordinary railroad track anvil, far from it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwg_h49VAPU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 In these welded up designs, at least the good ones, are the plates positioned with a gap consistent over the intire surface and then the gap welded shut from the center all the way out to the edge? How else can full penetration be achieved? Is full penetration required? Have some welded only the outside inch and reported good results? I wait with bated breath on the heat treat. since the piece is large and unwieldy, would picking a top plate like 1060 which has a simpler heat treat procedure including the use of water as the quenchant be a better choice. In the case of the 1060, couldn't residual heat be used to temper before a final quench in water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven511 Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 Glenn - I wasn't planning on getting a full penetration weld on the face plate, as I wanted to test the strength of a side-only weld. If it ends up breaking off I'll make a full penetration weld using the 1/4in square bar technique. For the horn and step, I was planning on using the 1/4in bar technique as well,adding a half inch to the step. The top plate comes pre-hardened (it says"decarb" and I've read that means it is hardened - correct me if I'm wrong), and I'll put some coolant oil on the face so that when welding the corners they shouldn't get more than a dark straw temper at the top, which optimistically will also help stop corners cracking off. I'm using the smaller waist because it's the biggest single piece available to me. I'm pretty sure that having a smaller, mono-steel waist is better than having a larger, patchwork welded waist, but tell me if you think I should weld it together. I'll definitely try making it out of some 4x4s before I buy the steel. Thanks for the feedback! Marc - Definitely a cool anvil he made, I'm actually basing off what a youtuber called The IronKiwi (I hope it's ok to mention him) did, which as very similar to what you showed me. MotoMike - I'm not quite certain if full penetration is needed, which is partially why I am making this. I have seen a lot of mixed results, so I wanted to try it on my own. I'm gonna be doing a side-only weld first, then if that doesn't hold up I will do a full penetration weld using the 1/4in bar technique. Thanks for all the feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Full disclosure: I am emphatically NOT a welder, so please take the following with a rather substantial lump of rock salt. 21 minutes ago, Steven511 said: it says"decarb" and I've read that means it is hardened "Decarb" means that the decarburized layer (that is, the outside layer that has lost some of its carbon content to the heated processes of manufacturing) has been ground off. That might mean that it has been hardened, but not necessarily; depends on the manufacturer. 25 minutes ago, Steven511 said: I wasn't planning on getting a full penetration weld on the face plate, as I wanted to test the strength of a side-only weld. Without full penetration, the plate and the body will flex at different rates. Best case scenario, this will make the anvil less efficient in resisting your hammer blows; worst case, the welds will break and the plate will come off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven511 Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 JHCC - thanks for the clarification on what “decarb” means, I’ll look in it it to make sure the plate is hardened. As for the welding, that is why I want to do this project. I know that it won’t be as good as a high quality forge-welded anvil, but I wanted to see if it could stand against something like a Vulcan, since it has a much thicker plate. This project is more of a science experiment than actually trying to make an amazing anvil, so I’m ok if it doesn’t turn out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I’d pick a different steel for the top plate, either simple carbon steel like 1050-1080, or a medium alloy medium carbon like 4140-4150. Cheaper, easier heat treat, tougher with impact, easier to weld to. Just my thoughts, not gospel. If you can’t have full penetration on welds, I’d surface grind mating parts so there was intimate contact, and include either pressed dowels to help hold that position and take shear loads when hitting the edge and sides, or a couple bolts coming from the bottom side into blind threaded holes in the 3” top plate. IF it’s been surface ground and both are perfectly flat it will behave much more like a solid piece. Also, mortise the horn for the heel plate to fit into, and make a small relief in the body for the lower edge of the horn to rest on. Use solid parts to take shear loads and welding to fix positions. These are easy changes since you are already cutting and forming the other pieces. Best Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I am worried more about the loss of efficiency than the fragility of a well welded edge weld. I mean you can make a car with duodecagon wheels and it will run; but you won't enjoy driving it...A lot of time and materials thrown away if it's not your "go to" anvil when it's done. Why have a heel if it's that thick? I mainly use the heel on my smallest anvil, 91# A&H, as it's less than an inch thick and so works for making forks and other ornamental ironwork. It also works for "hooking" an S hook on it and being able to straighten the shaft with a soft hammer. My very large anvils tend not to have heels that are usable save for large stock work. (My 469 pound Fisher has a heel that's about the same size on the end as some other anvils faces...) I am wondering if you are designing this without a lot of experience in using anvils. (I generally go with close adherence to known good designs or designing from a deep pool of experience where you can say "I want this feature different so I can do this") If you can swing the materials I'd go with an Italian style like a NIMBA, you will get a huge sweet spot that way. BTW have you read Ernie Leimkuhler's stuff on making fabricated anvils? One is at http://metalwebnews.com/howto/anvil1/anvil2.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevomiller Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Good point on thin heels, especially on a lighter anvil for small projects. On the other hand, if you need to hammer over the heel Brooks anvils act nicer than Trentons. An Italian, French or Bulgur would be not too tough to make (to TP point) . Or if you want to keep on the Austrian/Bavarian style, make the top and horn one piece of 4x4. For ease of material acquisition and welding use two pieces of the same standing up for the body. Austrian and Bavarian anvils are quite beefy under the sweet spots, lots of mass, don’t lose that since you are in control of it. Regardless of what you do have fun and share your final art project, I’d love to see it. And once it’s done, I for one will have zero negative comments, it’s your baby and only has to be beautiful to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 As an Art project: are you going for something Gaudi might like or something Neo-Brutalist? (You may want to avoid Daliesque anvils) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 The answers provided are based on working anvils. If you anvil is more toward an art piece, or a blend of art and working, choose what works for you. You may want to look at the design of church window anvils, and anvils where sculpture was included on the sides of the anvil. There have been some amazing sculptures carved into the wooden anvil stumps. Do not let us overthink your project. We offer suggestions, and it is up to you to use what works, for you. Please keep us informed as to your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pr3ssure Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 The only video I've ever found of a home made anvil is one where the guy had the entire body milled and welded on the feet and horn, all the others only have a partially welded face and body. Even the video where he welded from the inside out on the face it had zero ring and not much rebound. You're better off with a piece of track stood upright or just a big solid chunk of steel. Although for an art project, do whatever you want but for actual use you're probably better off with just a big chunk of steel. Most people don't realize that a real anvil is welded together with a welder, it's heated and forge welded to make one actual solid piece of steel. I wait patiently for the day to see the video of someone making an anvil by forging it. I did see a video once of 3 or 4 men forging an anvil in a giant power hammer but it was a small part of the forging and wasn't good quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Might check out is SOFA has a video of them re-facing an anvil forge welding the new face on. It was the Friday night demo at Quad-State a couple of years ago. I don't know if anything is left on the web about the "Cajun Blackened Anvil" which was where someone else was trying to forge weld the face on an anvil sand burnt up the body trying to heat it to welding. Of course thousands of anvils were made NOT forge welding a face on by either casting the anvil from solid steel---like the highly thought of Swedish anvils; or by using the entire top half of higher carbon steel; some of which were forge welded to the base and some were Arc welded to the base at the waist. Well thought of brands like the A&H and Trenton? used a full penetration arc weld at the base in later years IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 If I were doing it as an art sculpture for extra credit, I would seriously think about a bridge anvil. Some I've seen are working works of art. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/59751-bridge-anvil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I have both Hay Budden and Trenton with the welded waist. A friend has 2 larger Hay Buddens with the welded waist as well. I dont know on A&H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven511 Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 Because I am lazy and don't really want to reply to every single comment, I'll just go over the main points people have brought up. Overall I get the feeling that I have severely under researched what kind of anvil I want. I mostly just went with whatever looked right, rather than actually building it for the kind of work I want. I'll look into it more and find out what style works best for me but still follows my design direction. The references and links will surely help, so if anyone has more links to anvil design or related, I'd appreciate sharing. Just for future reference, my design inspiration is somewhat like what Thomas mentioned with Neo-Brutalism, but with an added flare of marble modernity and just a sprinkle of hysteria; think something that a Roman artisan might come up with after taking LSD for the first time. I'm getting the feeling that I'll need to find a new face plate, as it seems that the shortest length my supplier has is 12in O1 and it seems like I should be getting something like 8-10in 1060, though I can't find anything that's thick enough, does anyone know online suppliers that sell something like 1x3x10? Overall, thanks for both the advice and support, I'll probably be a bit slow at making it, as I'm buying, testing, refurbishing, and selling back a 50lb Vulcan to use as a competitor to my welded one, as they cost about the same in materials. However, when I make progress I'll be sure to post it here ASAP. EDIT: A question I forgot to ask in my original post was the problem of marking the anvil. There are a variety of ways that I could do it, but I was wondering 1: How I should mark it, 2: Where I should mark it, and 3: What mark should I use? I'm thinking I could hot-stamp a 1/4in plate S.H (initials) and then weld that to the body. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Faceplate: you mean like the straight pieces used in heavy duty leaf springs for RR cars, dump trucks and other heavy equipment? (Probably 5160) Markings: Me Fecit S.H. Chisled into the side and filled with braze using tig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven511 Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 Thomas - By faceplate I was just referring to whatever would become the hardened plate of my anvil. I might be mixing it up with a top plate, though I could swear it is called both. As for the marking, I like the idea but I have absolutely no idea how to engrave steel. How much would I have to practice before I could make a decent graving? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Between 1 hour and 100 years depending on YOU and YOUR talents and skills. If you prefer you could acid etch it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caotropheus Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 Steven511 Sorry that I am late...If you're looking for inspiration on anvil build go to Youtube and search videos with the following key words "homemade", "DIY", "Build", "Fabrication" plus key word "Anvil" and you will get dozens of very inspiring videos. First anvil I built was only edge welded and with time (and several thousands of blows) welds broke and anvil come apart. The first welds to break were the ones securing the top plate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanglediver Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 On 8/30/2018 at 2:57 PM, ThomasPowers said: Might check out is SOFA has a video of them re-facing an anvil forge welding the new face on. This one? All your tooling needs to be BIG. Hammers, tongs, anvil under the anvil, forge, quench water supply - all BIG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 Yup that's the one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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