Anvil obsession

[Marc1]

After yet another volcanic thread about anvils, I was wondering about this phenomenon of ... lets call it anvil obsession. 

Sure tools do draw a bit of passionate opinions from their owners, however I have yet to observe such exchange from carpenters about their vintage chisels or planes, or electricians about their multimeters, musicians about their instruments and honestly not even from collectors who by definition only accumulate collectables and do not use them. 

Sure, there is an inordinate number of new people drawn to the trade, however it is strange that just one of the numerous tools required to forge something is the object of such veneration. 

One would expect that a new person would be more interested in 'how to' debates, rather than the tired, repetitive exchange about the value of the anvil just purchased as if it was an art piece, or the need for repairs, the appropriateness of such move or ... the preservation of its "patina" ... God help us.

Trade websites are overwhelmingly about ... well the trade in question, what else. How to do this or that. Look at what I have done, how could I make the other etc.

We seem to attract a massive number of post related to a tool, one tool that, when at the centre of forging, is by no means the only one and will in itself do nothing without a large array of other tools and the skills that go with it in order to produce something pleasant. 

When I started forging I was interested in learning the ease the older smith displayed in making things, their eye for aesthetics and how they could make an art piece out of a dull piece of flat bar. The anvil they used was always inconsequencial and of no interest to me. In fact for years I did not even know about brands or country of origin.  

I suppose we are all different but I always wondered how is it that there is hardly an interest in what we do and how we do it, and all this obsession about anvils. 

[Tubalcain2]

Yes, we musicians do it with our instruments.

[anvil]

Well said Marc1

49 minutes ago, Tubalcain2 said:

quote removed

Lol,  musicians have one thing over blacksmiths.  When you hit a sour note, it gets lost in the ethereal. When we blacksmith screw up, it will haunt us for a thousand years! 

[ThomasPowers]

Carpenters, no; but woodworkers YES IN SPADES!   The discussions on chisels and planes, bevel angles for individual woods, make the anvil talks look like offhand remarks in passing....

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Guess you have never heard police officers discuss their firearms.

[Frosty]

I spend a while talking to Metalmangler, Mark who demos at the fair every year I go. I answer general questions and point stuff out so he can concentrate on what he's doing. Is it ANY surprise folks who don't know anything about the craft ask really basic often irrelevant or silly questions? How old is that anvil and thinking older is better are common myths. It's no mystery, it's common for anybody breaking into a new craft. It didn't take me 30 seconds to ask my Brother about double clutching when he was teaching me to drive a Semi. Haven't had to double clutch since syncromesh was developed. When shortly after WWII? 1950's for sure.

At the booth teaching first aid I listened in while a couple EMTs from a different company stopped in and got to discussing tourniquets. I was standing right there as I'd been fiddling with the ones in the booth, they're WAY better than anything I'd trained with. Anyway, if you think we get going talking about tools of the trade like . . . (OH GASP!) anvils  you should hear folks who's tools are life and death. 

Helping the new folk learn the basics is what the old hands do. Should anyway.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Actually I ended up using a chunk of 3x4" steel as an "anvil" Saturday.  I was trying to justify an old drilling sledge we had forged one end to a heel on as part of a stake  anvil I'm building.  Tried using my screwpress and various stacks of metal to support the sledge head but never got it just right.  Finally I realized that I could hold the hammer section flat on the 3x4" with the screw press and hammer the heel down to flat.  Worked a treat though using a cheese fuller to work the transition under the screw press helped as well. Lovely having a screwpress where you use 3x4"x16" steel blocks and they still visibly flex when you spin the die down.

[MC Hammer]

I don't find it odd at all.  The anvil is the central figure that represents blacksmithing as a craft.  You wouldn't put a picture of a set of tongs or a hot cutter on a sign outside your blacksmith shop, nope, you'd most likely put a picture of an anvil because that is central to what we do and communicates who you are. Whatever thing is central to whatever a person is heavily involved in will naturally get that kind of attention.  I've witnessed law enforcement discuss the finer points of what the best handcuffs were and certainly hours on handguns.  I've seen woodworkers obsess over old wood planes and such as well, and flintknappers obsess over that super nice piece of colored flint.   

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most all the threads on the forum are about methods, building things, equipment etc. with only one section dedicated to anvils.  Reading the unread postings shows that most people here move past the anvil focus and onto asking questions about how to do things.  

Hi, I'm MC Hammer............I admit, I love looking at a nice anvil   Then I stop........and it's hammer time   

[Marc1]

I find it very odd MC. if you like I do, only look at the latest post, the flow of "I bought an anvil, how much is it worth ..." is massive in comparison to anything else. 

Any trade you care to think of, will have new people interested that will start by asking "how to" questions and never "I bought a cordless drill" 

Nothing wrong with wanting to start a collection of antiques or even making a profit with a purchase. Just that it seems someone starting a trade or even a hobby would be more interested in how to do things than in a display of pristine antiques. May be I am getting old.

[ThomasPowers]

Folks are worried that they overpaid or hope to brag that they underpaid.  As few folks are well versed in the market for such things; they ask here. (And are often dismayed to find that the market amongst users is much less than the market amongst folks trying to make money off them.)  Some are hoping for offers to purchase but have hid that in their post.

I am amused at the intense interest in makers and dates; I remember pre-AinA times when anvils were usually judged as good to use, fair to use and not worth using...

[Marc1]

Precisely my point. You can excuse a bit of obsessing over makers and dates from those who have 40 years in the trade, and also a bit of contempt for so called ASO.

Yet for someone starting, nothing better than spending $50 on an ASO to start learning how to shape something into something else and not having to worry about their new ASO getting a beating. Instead we seem to encourage buying highly overpriced beaten up wrecks just because they once were anvils. I was recently told off for suggesting a new person to use his already purchased ASO rather than looking for odd substitutes. 

Anyway. Not interested in starting another anvil vs railroad track thread. Only surprised at the "anvil obsession" that could be excused for old timers but seems odd for newer folks. Note I say odd not wrong. Instead it seems that folks already in the trade for years have less interest in showcasing the latest and best anvil yet those who have decided yesterday to have a go, want to buy the most expensive anvil they can afford before even buying a bag of coal. 

And experienced blacksmith do not help much in this area. I remember once i poked my head in a blacksmithing forum on facebook and joined a conversation about old vs new anvils. Oh my! what a mistake. I was in the camp that said new anvils of reputable origin are in general better than the older one you can find for sale and better value. I think that if this was face to face and not online I would have been lynched by the mob, headed by the master forumite himself who would have placed his 700 pounder  columbian on my chest to prove it. 

I have no time for fanatics and wish we could promote our trade without passing on our shortcomings to the newcomers. They have to contend with their own motivations, most likely spurred by a TV show that is biased and unrealistic, and focuses on one small specialised area of blacksmithing and ignores everything else at the new persons loss. 

[otisdog]

Well, this is the Anvil forum....

Blacksmithing topics are (ahem) on the 

blacksmith forum...

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Exactly my thoughts otisdog...

[MC Hammer]

My observations of people posting and asking about makers and age seems to be because they know they will be asked by someone and they want an answer.  Everyone always asks me how old my anvil is and when I tell them most likely pre 1898 they think that's old and I tell them that it's fairly young in terms of anvil age.  I think there are a few posting that want to brag about how old their anvil is, but we all know it doesn't matter.  

I think if you are demonstrating that it's important to know all you can about the anvil and tools you are using because people will ask.  I was just at a flintknapping event this past weekend and I always carry a set of aboriginal tools in my bag because I know I'l get asked "What did the Indians use, not the tools you are using right?"  So then I pull out the aboriginal set and do the whole speech I've done 100's of times.  So, in that aspect I think it's important to know it.

I also think some people want to connect with the rich history an anvil might have.  The older it is the more people that have likely been forging on it.  For some, this creates a richer experience.  For those of us who've been at it a while or even a few years, we get over that and see the anvil as a tool to create things on.  Just my observations.

[ThomasPowers]

"Old enough to know better" works for me.

[anvil]

Altho from the get go, I was exposed to "anvil brands" , quality, and history, I never cared one way or another. I wanted a good serviceable anvil and just to go to work.  I've worked in many shops with different anvils, forge types, and the like. Its never taken much time to get what I needed out of any anvil for the job at hand in any shop. If than't weren't the case, id have been shown the door as quick as you could clean any clinker from yer fire!

And then comes facebook and forums on the internet. All of a sudden anvil type and history floats to the top. And, its most obvious that this medium caters to many who have far more intellectual interest than actual practical experience. is this good? Bad? Or what? 

Nope, when in the land of the hobbiest, part timer and those of casual interest, the "critical" topics are far different than those with the professional who gets a new comission and wants a hand. Those conversations after work with him will be far different than those here or other on line sites.

Here a debate over a trenton "london pattern" vs a northern german double horn is far more critical than discussing say the most efficient way to forge a basic right angle bend to dimension specifically for the project at hand. Poof,,, gone over yer head as meaningless techno babbel!

I suspect that the anvil debate would go on for many pages whilst the right angle bend tech discussion would fade rather quickly. 

And that's what Marc1 is talking about. And he is correct.

However, the answer isnt which is a better topic,  but to realize that the quality of topic depends on the audience you are dealing with. So on occasion, one may slip into a rather specialized blacksmith topic on line with the hopes that perhaps this little gem will benefit the few, not the majority, and, of course, be willing to deal with the negative "debate" from the rest.

A lession I've learned and continually am reminded of the hard way. 

But hey, those who grasp those points are far worth all and the reason for continuing.

[blacksmith-450]

3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Folks are worried that they overpaid or hope to brag that they underpaid. 

LOL so true !

[John McPherson]

There is an old story that when great art critics gather, they discuss line, form, depth, shadows, meaning, hidden meanings, brush strokes, ad nauseum.

When great artists gather, they discuss brands of brushes and cleaners, and which bars will extend credit until you sell something.

[Frosty]

Do any of you find it ironic that a thread in the Anvils, swage blocks, etc. section stops discussing anvils, swage blocks, etc. in any meaningful way and turns into a criticism of folks not wanting to talk about anvils in the way they should?  And so the thread turns.

Forgive me please for feeling like I'm wasting time reading this I could be better spending answering new folk's questions. Regardless of who may THINK they're legitimate.

Say John, know of any bars that'll extend credit? I'll gladly pay them Thursday.

Frosty The Lucky.

[SLAG]

Jer,

Which Thursday?

SLAG.

[Marc1]

Ha ha folks. Some good answers and some ... ahem ... just like in life.

My father used to say ... one shovel of lime and one of sand.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.” 
― Harlan Ellison

And then there is the quote on irony by Oscar Wild ... but you can google it.

 

[MC Hammer]

Anvil - you made so good points.  That makes sense.  Then along comes Frosty who makes even more sense.  Perhaps this thread is spinning it's wheels in a practical sense and is more intellectual.  Guess we should all just get hammering hot metal on whatever anvil we have   I admit, I don't think much about my anvil's history or pedigree when forging.  Who has time to worry about that when working?  I know I don't.

[JHCC]

On 8/27/2018 at 9:37 AM, MC Hammer said:

You wouldn't put a picture of a set of tongs or a hot cutter on a sign outside your blacksmith shop, nope, you'd most likely put a picture of an anvil because that is central to what we do and communicates who you are.

On this, I must disagree. Certainly true in the last couple of hundred years, when we're talking about London-pattern anvils and others with similarly distinctive horns, but if you look before that -- say, to Roman relief carvings -- when anvils were more blocky and less distinctive, hammers and tongs are much more prominent, as are depictions of the products that the blacksmith makes: axes, adzes, and so on.

[ThomasPowers]

I remember a Roman gravestone for a smith---hammer and tongs were prominent.  (Roman Museum in Bath several decades ago???)

[anvil]

16 hours ago, John McPherson said:

When great artists gather, they discuss brands of brushes and cleaners, and which bars will extend credit until you sell something.

Lol,I'm sitting in a coffee shop and just before I read this I was talking to my waitress and explaining that as a blacksmith, I've never had a monthly check, and described "working by commission" in nearly identical terms!.