Jump to content
I Forge Iron

Material for anvil stand


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, anvil said:

I just cannot see any advantage to a rr track stood on end over one properly mounted and tricked out a bit with a horn and heel

One word: rigidity. As noted above:

On 8/9/2018 at 12:40 AM, Charles R. Stevens said:

In the horizontal the 7/8” web flexes minutely and absorbed some of the energy intended to move steel. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 97
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On 8/9/2018 at 11:59 PM, JHCC said:

What's the risk? Unless your hand is somehow below the face of the anvil, your knuckles never come near the top of the rail while you're hammering.

What's risky is hammering on the face of the anvil when you've left a hot-cut or other tool in the hardy hole, because that sticks up above the work face, putting your fingers at risk.

Sure. 

Picture a beginner forging on a vertical RR track standing on the back of it and missing the minuscule working surface, holding the hammer 6" from the head and not 12". (Most of my hammers don't even have a 12" long handle) Unless you cut away the web and the base diagonally or in a J cut that vertical RR is an accident waiting to happen ... not to mention that unless you forge confetti size stuff, it would be a frustrating exercise comparing to any anvil, made in China or in Bulgaria. 

As for the supporters of "horizontal RR is better than vertical" ... better for what is the question. Surely you can see that hammering on an RR on end will sound and feel a lot more solid for good reasons. A horizontal RR will appear to be more practical with a larger surface. Providing you can restrain from cutting a pretend horn or heel in it, and providing you want to forge small stuff and have no neighbours, a horizontal RR may serve you for some limited purposes. Yet comparing horizontal with vertical and only comparing which one is more solid, vertical wins hands down.

On that line, I visited a scrap metal yard not too long ago that had a pile 2m high of crane rail. This stuff was massive and would make the railroad lovers salivate. Definitely good improvised anvil material.   

To the OP I stand by what I said. Use your Chinese anvil until you smash it out of shape. Then and only then decide your next move. In fact probably way before your Chinese anvil looks like a donut, a better anvil will find its way in your workshop.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a farrier I was taught to have a handle that reached the crook of the elbo when one cradled the head in your hand. I don’t have any short handled forging hammers. I can always choke up. 

But as has been said more than once, “ask 10 blacksmiths a question get 11 opinions”. My advice is to take all this advice and go to the shop and ask the steel what it thinks. Dose the steel move faster on your “ASO”, on your rail horizontal or vertical. Come back and let us know what the hot steel had to say about our advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, Marc1 said:

Picture a beginner forging on a vertical RR track standing on the back of it

I can picture that scenario, but it seems much more likely that a beginner would address a track anvil from the side with the running surface:

C7CDD884-0CAF-4CA1-9C5C-F76E049B1244.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, JHCC said:

rigidity

I did read that,,  however, when properly mounted to a stump or stand rigidity can no longer can be an issue. 

 

17 hours ago, JHCC said:
18 hours ago, Marc1 said:

Picture a beginner forging on a vertical RR track standing on the back of it

I can picture that scenario,

Referring to this pic and your comment about a beginner. How would you keep from dinging your iron on the two edges? Even with good hammer control, seems that would be a real problem with such a small surface to forge on. I can't even see where you have enough surface area to forge a leaf keychain without dinging it up.

Again, I'm not argueing. And my "intro" to this configuration is due to the web these last few years. This is my first look at its possibilities. 

Thanks for the info. Its not for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, anvil said:

when properly mounted to a stump or stand rigidity can no longer can be an issue.

If the central web is flexing, it doesn’t matter how rigidly the base is mounted. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t think any of us are saying that a chunk of rail is the ultaman anvil, it certainly isn’t.

We are saying that it’s beter than a cast iron “anvil” and it’s beter to use it in the vertical orientation than in the horizontal for general forging. 

Unless one clamps  the web, so as to support the rail head the web will still flex and absorb energy beter used to move hot steel, so I still advise up right. 

As to a beginners poor hammer control, beter to ding up a piece of scrap steel at $.10# than a good London pattern. Honestly serchnfor images of Viking and Iron Age anvils and Viking and Iron Age Iron work.  The anvils were small, often no bigger than a peinning anvil for a scithe. 

Lastly, sharp edges are not your friend anyway, they should be radiused, even the clip horn on my anvils are not realy sharp as it creates stress risers and the clips crack. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it makes a great beginners anvil.

I'm no structural engineer, but I just cannot imagine,,, even a 10' piece suspended at each end and struck a blow in the middle with a 2-1/2# hammer any flexing at all. But lets accept that as being the case.

Properly mounted means securly mounted to the stand or stump no matter how you hang it. Lol, it better be properly mounted if its vertical or it will fall over with the first blow.  ;)

So,,  how do you make a simple beginners leaf keychain on that small surface without dinging your work? I guess you could just make a really small leaf. ;)

Again, you guys, I mean no offence and I hope my attempt at humor is noted. 

Truly, if it works for you, that's good enough for me,, in your shop. I just do not see any benefits. 

Lol, in the debate on anvil size, I stood firmly that size doesn't matter.  I stand corrected,,, this is too small for me.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take a look at the face sizes of extent Viking era Norse anvils.  You not being able to do it doesn't mean lots of others can't do it easily...

As for deflection; a friend of mine's father was a research Metallurgist at Batelle; at one point he was studying micro deflection and had an instrumented section of 4"x4" steel mounted horizontally by 1 end.  Laying a finger on the other end would make the numbers fly on the readouts.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, anvil said:

I just cannot imagine,,, even a 10' piece suspended at each end and struck a blow in the middle with a 2-1/2# hammer any flexing at all. 

And this is why we have YouTube:

Jump to 6:18 for a rather dramatic shot of how much RR track flexes — as indeed it is designed to do! Otherwise, you could never cold-bend it around a curve or have it flex up and down to absorb the stresses of the trucks passing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Impressive flexibility!

8 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

We are saying that it’s better than a cast iron “anvil” and it’s better to use it in the vertical orientation than in the horizontal for general forging. 

I honestly don't see how a RR track on end can ever be better than a bad Chinese anvil. The limitations of such small surface are way too much to even consider. A bad soft anvil will provide a larger surface, and make forging possible. Note I say possible not ideal. A RR tack on end would be impossible to use but for the smallest or narrowest of items. May be you can forge a small knife on it? I don't know, I wouldn't even try.

The RR track works better vertical because in that way the mass under the hammer is maximised. In the horizontal position, the hammer pushes the place of impact down but the ends of the section of rail do not follow, they can remain behind due to flexibility and do not contribute the required inertia to counteract the force of the hammer blow and so the rail dips down in the place of impact. If you imagine using a single leaf car suspension as anvil, and hit it in the middle you can picture this effect better. 

8 hours ago, anvil said:

I'm no structural engineer, but I just cannot imagine,,, even a 10' piece suspended at each end and struck a blow in the middle with a 2-1/2# hammer any flexing at all. But lets accept that as being the case.

 Steel flexes a lot more than it may seem. Check the span tables for universal beams or RHS or SHS and you will be surprised.

Having said that, If I had no other option than using a RR track to forge (note to forge not to test rebound) I would not hesitate using it on it's side and not vertical. No amount of rebound and mass under the hammer can compensate for the lack of surface to work with. 

My conclusion is,  that if the options are: A RR vertical, a RR horizontal, or a Chinese ASO, and I am forging any of my usual stuff, gate, window grill, gate lock, bed, table, lamp, chair whatever. i will have to settle for Chinese ASO anytime. Second horizontal RR. Vertical RR would be of no use to me. May be I can forge a thumb latch for a gate lock? yes, with a small hammer and asking myself why do I bother ... :)

Note for the RR enthusiast. You can make some limited improvement to a piece of rail if you are really keen. 

First would be to increase the rigidity of the web. Two flat bar 1/4" or 1/2" thick that fit snug between the foot and the head welded all along can help with that. 

Next is to give the best possible stand to this contraption. I would chose the biggest chunk of steel you can find, be it universal beam, thick plate, heavy SHS or RHS with thick walls, and weld the base all around to the stand. 

Avoid cutting the ends to mimic a heel or a horn. if anything I would go the other way and that is cutting the rail at 60 degrees to give the ends more support with a taper outwards and stop the ends of the head from flapping around.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Marc1 said:

I honestly don't see how a RR track on end can ever be better than a bad Chinese anvil.

You should stop looking so hard for reasons to disagree beyond expressing your opinion the first time. You don't make yourself look very good. 

Needing a large surface for an anvil face is a skill issue, not a tool quality issue. And yes, it's much easier to straighten a piece vertically than horizontally IF you need to use a steel surface to do so. Vertical orientation allows you to sight straight down the piece's length while laying flat on anything means you have to judge everything. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ha ha, Frosty, you never cease to amaze me. 

I would like you to show me how to forge 60mm x 6mm and make a scroll the hard way on the end of a rail. And straighten on the side of an unsupported rail fitted vertical. 

Of course anything is possible. One could forge using the concrete kerb on the street in front of your house. 

We are talking about cheap solution for a beginner that will have some practicality. I say use a ASO anytime. 

As far as what you think about my person, it is no secret ... and also irrelevant. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And yet in the early medieval period they used to forge swords on what we would consider tiny anvils nowadays.  There is that video of a smith forging kukris using a sledge hammer head as his anvil---better go tell him that's not possible cause he's been making a living doing it for a long time!

Perhaps for what *you* do you must have a larger faced anvil. I however could easily see scrolling the hard way on the roman anvil at bath. I've owned an ASO and found forging on a much smaller chunk of real steel to be much superior!  Especially when forging coil springs where most of the energy of a hammer strike went into denting the cast iron and not deforming the work piece.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We need to realign the conversation to the beginner and the projects they will be working with. Making a scroll from 60 mm x 6 mm or 2.36 inches x .236 (1/4) inch flat bar the hard way IS NOT a beginners project.

The beginner may be able to source a piece of rail road track at little or no cost. An AOS cast anvil actually cost real dollars that the beginner may not have. Yes, if the beginner were to go to a blacksmith meeting or organization at double that AOS cost, they could pick up a REAL anvil. As a beginner they are told a rail road track anvil is usable. They are not told to go to a blacksmith meeting for anvils and tooling.

We need to keep things simple, affordable, and informative to the beginner. With that knowledge and a the fire in their belly they can get started and rise to the skill level they want to achieve. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I shoe for a living so the first rattle out of the box I scroll the hard way. I can turn scrolls all day with out a horn or a bic, so can Jerry and Thommas. 

 

I suggest you go on out and buy you a $50 ASO and a chunk of rail or any other solid hunk of scrap steel.

Forge on all three and see how they each work for you. That goes for the experienced smith as well as the beginner. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is actually funny that the more experience you have the more you can do with less. Beginners often don't realize this.  It's not helped that when folks post thing they often show off their fancy tools rather than using the least fancy stuff.

Honest Bob used to Demo at SOFA meetings using a chunk of shafting from a hydro plant IIRC as his anvil. Had a stump carved so he could set it flat or on the curved side and use it either way.   He sells smithing tools at Quad-State so it wasn't due to a lack of a London Pattern anvil!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see a contradiction in your answers.

First you say we have to align replies for the beginner. 

But you follow with a Rail on end is the way to go. 

If you are a beginner you don't try circus acts forging on a ridiculously small bit of a rail.

Sure it can be done. The question is why would you?

If you have a choice of a cheap anvil, go for the cheap anvil and forget the rail on end.

Or use it on its side and put up with the noise and other drawbacks. 

When you have learned to forge a dime into a butterfly using a pickaxe for a hammer may be you can then be comfortable forging other items on the pitiful size a rail on end offers. 

For a beginner ... find a lump of steel of reasonable size and forge away.

It is not how you do it but what you do.

And of course the tools used vary according to the project. 

It would be a challenge to find project for a beginner to be forged on the end of a RR. Sure there are a few. All much better done on the side and not the end of the RR, and despite the fact that the end of the RR is much better as an anvil than the side as I tried to explain before. 

And a RR on its side can be made better as described before, for little or no money.

You could even drill a few holes in the base and bolt it down on an engine block using the bolts for the cylinder head.

I read many times on this forum how wonderful some primitive smith are in using rocks for anvils or hammer heads. Sure, admirable but not a proposal for a beginner. If you want to make sure you discourage someone that starts the craft, tell him to forge on the end of a rail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/11/2018 at 11:57 AM, Charles R. Stevens said:

Unless one clamps  the web, so as to support the rail head the web will still flex and absorb energy beter used to move hot steel, so I still advise up right. 

And there it is. We agree! But as per Glens post, i would secure the base, not the web. Perhaps thats what you meant.Properly mounted and no flex, and a good lesson for any beginner is how to secure your anvil to the stand/stump. No daylight under the base means no flex. Build an angle iron frame to fit the base and add a good set of legs, no flex. Lol,it might walk like my farrier setup tended to do on pavement, but no flex. 

And never forget, all a blacksmith really needs to do anything is the ring in his ears,,,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

Marc, I feel like you are intentionally missing the point. 

 

 

He's not missing anything Charles, they're strawman arguments.

Don't feed the trolls. Does nobody any good.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No if I was referring to the base, I usually call it the flange (like an I beam) I don’t care how tightly you mount the flange/base the web is still only 7/8” thick. The thin flange will still flex much more than would a solid 1 1/2”x3” column (the rail head set vertically).

I know American English and Australian English is a bit different and my spelling sucks but are we dealing with miscommunication or somthing else?

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/9/2018 at 1:38 AM, JHCC said:

quote removed

 

On 8/1/2018 at 10:55 PM, Chuyn said:

quote removed

 

On 8/1/2018 at 11:11 PM, JHCC said:

another quote removed

Etc etc ... 

Skipping the personal attacks from Frosty and now Charles, my  point is that this is poor advice. It is harder  to forge on a RR on end and impossible to forge larger projects. 

It is much  better  to forge on a cheap anvil mounted properly, particularly when the new person has already purchased the said cheap anvil. 

The bias and prejudice displayed by some of you guys is rather disturbing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...