Lou L Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Okay, here is my latest project! My old friend is a unique individual and asked me if I could make knives for him to give away to the three people standing up for him at his wedding...and one for him. I told him I would give it a go and reinforced all the realities of my incompetence in the knife making realm. He sent me a design he wanted and asked me to make them as big as possible within the limits of my equipment and ability. Here is his design. He wasn’t certain how he expected me to get those shapes around the spine and ricasso..he just liked the design. I decided to keep it thick at the spine and grind the blade thinner below it...if that makes sense. Here are my first two attempts at various stages. One is the very rough forging, the other is ground and needing a few refinements before quenching. Both are about 17” and are forged out of leaf spring stock. Questions to follow: So, the thickness of the blade tapers significantly toward the tip (distal taper) and the thick part of the spine is much thicker than the blade below it. My concern is the quench. I intend to quench in heated peanut oil. My current quench tank is a large, horizontal ammo can. I fully expect the blade to warp like mad. It has been annealed correctly (heated just past non magnetic and cooled slowly in very fine ash overnight) twice. Questions: Am I completely doomed if I quench it horizontally? How thin is too thin for the blade prior to quenching? I went pretty thin at the very end of the taper because I feared destroying the temp trying to remove too much near the tip later on. What grit finish should I have on it before heat treat? Why did I tell my friend I would do this for him? Thanks for reading and more thanks for your help, Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, Lou L said: Why did I tell my friend I would do this for him? Lol. Sorry, wish I could help but I wouldn't throw my inexperience at you. But That line got me. I have said no to some projects I got asked to make because they were above my experience level, and I wasn't ready to make that leap. Looks like that handle part with the finger hole that goes over the blade would look good in brass and I think Theo would be one to ask if you went that direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joël Mercier Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 If your main concern is warping, i would normalize them before quenching. Annealing makes the steel softer but a good thermal cycling helps more with the warps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastaStan Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 As Joel said, you're best normalizing prior to quenching....go through the motions to get the desired result. What does your unique friend intend the knives to be used for? I think your best bet is to quench one, as proposed as a tester, and go from there to see if your choice of steel works with the shape of the knife as its quenched. Finger hole has me intrigued, hope I get to see the end result. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 You may want to search images for: sabertooth knives to see a bunch with finger holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted March 21, 2018 Author Share Posted March 21, 2018 Thanks for the input all! I have no idea what my buddy intends to do with the knives beside give them as gifts. I am quite certain that all the people receiving one are active in the SCA and the knives are likely to be gear at Pennsic. Perhaps they will only be ornamental...who knows? I love the idea of using brass or bronze for the raised area. It would make the grinding magnitudes easier but adds the complexity of the brass work. I don’t have a clue as to which brass is workable and otherwise suited to the task. Perhaps I’ll PM Theo if this first one doesn’t work out. I will be certain to give it a few thermal cycles prior to the quench. It is entirely likely that, in my ignorance and haste, I might have skipped that step. Does anyone have any suggestions for removing the crud and scale after the heat treat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Certainly NOT medieval or Renaissance. Master Wilelm the Smith, SCA since 1978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastaStan Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 47 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: You may want to search images for: sabertooth knives to see a bunch with finger holes. I see finger holes on a daily basis, but yet to see one on Lou's finished knife. Comment didn't really help the original post. To jump in and 'help' someone who's trying to help isn't really helping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Sorry, I thought you were interested in knives with finger holes: "Finger hole has me intrigued, hope I get to see the end result." and posted reference to a fellow whose done a lot of them, I remember seeing them back in the '80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MastaStan Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Sorry too, hope I didnt offend, I guess its the result of not knowing emotion in text. I just wanted to see the end result of Lou's knife/knives. Thank you for the link to saber tooth, I'll take a look now. A 'Newb' doing a knife like this with with a finger hole does have me intrigued! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 MastaStan, I am a Newb for sure! And this knife is beyond newb level...but I’m well read, I listen to my superiors, and I’m dedicated to a slow, thoughtful process. Therefore, I have a snowball’s chance. I hope I’m able to produce something interesting. Thomas Powers, You are dead right, that knife would have no place in the SCA. I wasn’t even thinking about making something period. Either my buddy had no intention for it to be an SCA prop or his imagination got the best of him. I honestly didn’t ask. I just accepted his challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joël Mercier Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Lou L said: Does anyone have any suggestions for removing the crud and scale after the heat treat? If you're not in a hurry, let it soak in white vinegar overnight. If you are in a hurry, a bench grinder with a wire brush will do. If you ever get warps (there will most likely be some), you can try to correct them right after the quench while its still too hot to touch without gloves. If you want to take your time, fix the warps between 2 tempering cycles while its hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 Thanks. I’ll go for the slow method on both counts. I’ve seen and read about people clamping the knife between two pieces of steel during the temper in order to straighten it. I think I’ll build one of those rigs ahead of time just in case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 No problem; I was mentioning it just in case....(looks like LotR movie elvish to me!) Please remember any time you try to straightening a blade after quench there is a good possibility of catastrophic failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 17 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: sabertooth knives Actually I did make the effort to look at the Sabertooth line before commenting, and noticed that, other than the serrated spine that gives them their name, the design is pretty close to the one the OP had from his friend. Not sure if there was some influence, or just a coincidence, but it may be helpful to the OP to look at the specific finger hole configuration for a similar knife design that has been produced, sold and used successfully. Specifically the front and rear narrowing of the OP forged blanks seem to provide pinch points that may not be comfortable for use. Here is a typical example of a Sabertooth without the spine serration: And here is one with the serration and a handle design closer to the OP: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted March 22, 2018 Author Share Posted March 22, 2018 Thanks for the input Latticino, it is an excellent point and I think my friend will not mind some artistic license practiced here. This is what happens when an artsy type dude designs a knife for his inexperienced friend to forge. But that’s exactly why I come here. I think I will like the straighter handle that sits on contrast to the curved blade. Plus, the grind on that design is much, much easier to accomplish. I think I can figure out how to forge that design with limited alterations to my current method. ThomasPowers, I assumed it would snap like a twig as soon as I try! I am thinking about using a piece of angle iron, some washers, and a bunch of small c clamps. I’m hoping to slowly tighten the clamps on occasion during the first temper cycle if it needs it. I imagine I’m going to learn what you know soon enough. Have to find out just how much it can take some way! There is no substitute for misery when you want some good learnin’.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Don't forget: "The method that has worked successfully dozens of times before will result in catastrophic failure when used on a piece that is on a hard deadline." (A variation on the old electronics "the $150 chip will self destruct to save a 10 cent fuse in the power supply"...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavpilot2k Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Relative newbie here too, but curious why you think a horizontal quench (edge-in first, not held flat) would cause warping on a blade this length. I can see the advantage to vertical quenching on something of sword-length, but I wouldn't imagine knife-length would matter. I'm really asking not to sharpshoot you, but for my own edification, because I too, use a more horizontally-oriented quench setup (a belted 40mm Mk-19 ammo can), and am moving to larger knives up to 18" overall, and I am hoping I am not setting myself up for an unforeseen problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 I didn’t have any reason to think it would actually warp due to being horizontal. I really was trying to wade through all the mysticism you run in to when you get information from a variety of places. This forum isn’t where the hard-nosed pragmatists with loads of real experience hang out...so I test for wives’ tales here if I have questions. By the way, the horizontal quench went fine. I had some warping but that was due mostly to my not respecting the value of thermal cycling! After pecking away at this knife project for months in little spurts of time I’ve f8nally had the time to invest this past week and have made major strides. My friend asked for five knives. This represents the process I’ve followed in all of the steps. I move forward with the first one and, as I learn mistakes to avoid, I move a little more one the next one. I just recently learned the value of grinding to a pretty fine grit prior to heat treat (or just doing most grinding after heat treat). Because I left it too rough I have lots of hand sanding to do to clean up the heat treated knife on the far left. The one next to it is nearly hand sanded fine enough so I can heat treat it. From left to right displays my current status from nearly done to starting billet. So many mistakes in this photo! I learned a lot getting to this point. Fortunately, I told my friend I was going to experiment with the forging of each so they would not be identical, rather, they would be siblings. I really regret accepting this design with the varied thickness from the bolster into the ricasso. It’s all hand ground, filed and sanded because no grinder..belt or otherwise...can get into that area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 4 hours ago, Lou L said: This forum isn’t where the hard-nosed pragmatists with loads of real experience hang out... oh really ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kerr Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 26 minutes ago, Steve Sells said: oh really ? based on the context, I'm pretty sure he meant "IS". 4 hours ago, Lou L said: ...... I was trying to wade through all the mysticism you run into......so I test for wives’ tales here if I have questions..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 So sorry that we are not worthy, enough, for you. And only good for wive's tales. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 Oh, sorry all. I swear that was an iPad typo. Sometimes it just decided what word it thinks in trying to type. Gotta love that typo. That's pure curmudgeon bait right there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windancer Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Interesting thread! Good to watch your evolution. Please continue to post as your knives progress. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Not going to tell my wife, 72 on Sunday, she's old; as I do not want to cause hernias in all my friends attending my ensuing estate sale! Have you looked up at dremel tooling and cratex wheels for cleaning up odd nooks and crannies on a blade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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