Lump of Steel

[Daswulf]

*sigh* I'll just set my shovel down over here.... 

[DavidF]

Lots of great opinions and dialogue. I will say that I will take the opinions (both 40 years and 6 months) where benefits are observed. I have heard these conversations in the past as well and I will absolutely take the benefit of others experience. But I was hoping to see a study cited or scientific process outlined. It isn’t necessary for me to be influenced, but because I do see other opinions, I was hoping that someone would have something tangible to point to more empirical results. Sometimes it becomes more faith based to make decisions which is fine and I do highly value the opinions of individuals on the forum. But if anyone sees something that might provide an experiment or similar, please share. I personally would love to see something that is a side by side comparison. Probably going to be my research product for the night if someone doesn’t post something in the next couple of hours. I will share if I find anything interesting.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

1 hour ago, sfeile said:

going from a rail "anvil" to a Vulcan with a hard face was a very noticeable difference

I started out with a 110 lb Vulcan and still use it for light mild steel work, but when we acquired a 106 lb Hay Budden the difference is like night & day in the way hot metal moves. Now when forging high carbon steel it's the HB every time. The Vulcan has about 70% rebound and is quiet. The HB has 90 % rebound and rings some even after setting it in calk. My wife loves the HB only a little less than she loves me.

[sfeile]

That's probably the same one I have. 110lb, about 70%, and nice and quiet. One day I'd like to get a good steel anvil. I know the difference was big just moving to the Vulcan, I can imagine it would be even better on good steel. The biggest downside to the Vulcan for me at the moment is the flat bulky horn. Makes some turning projects harder than they should be.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I forged a small bick out of sucker rod to fit the hardy hole to solve the problem.

[sfeile]

That's on my list of things. Need some better weather. This 4 degree cold is no good for a dirt floor and no insulation shop haha.

[Daswulf]

That's what friends with heated shops are for lol. 

[sfeile]

What's a good time? haha!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Some times it’s worth it to a company to alow welders to experiment and practice on their own projects. They gain experience that way: 

[Daswulf]

Usually weekends are free. I'm not much of an early morning person tho. So noon till whenever? 

[sfeile]

Once the weather is a bit more travel friendly I'll be down. 6 years of second shift, I'm not a morning person either.

[Daswulf]

Sure. Don't wait too long tho. Late April I'll be a busy father.  

[Charles R. Stevens]

We do have a metallurgist perking around here somewhere, and I know a manufacturing engineer (masters) I can ask. My thaught is it comes down to deformation, a harder surface acts less like a spring. Even if the surface dosnt bend but springs back to its original shape some energy is absorbed by the deformation 

[DavidF]

I agree Charles. I think the harder surface allows for the better deformation, acting like a 90% strike (if a 90% rebound) on the side that is on the anvil. And I am sure with exposure to different surfaces, I will feel the same results that you guys all know. I know the difference in feel of cast golf clubs versus forged. When you hit the exact center, you don’t feel a lot of difference between the two. But when you hit outside of center, the feedback is entirely different. There are other considerations with the golf club example like MOI and mass placements that can expand the sweet spot, where they refer to it as more forgiving. I am sure some of the same physics are in play wit a hammer and anvil. Which would lead to a bigger surface being desirable, but the difference is the absorption of energy by the stock and the face plate. If the face is softer, it would take more energy away from the deformation and if your strike isn’t on a flat piece, like striking the tip to form a point, and only having the spine in small contact, I would expect to feel a substantial difference from a cast iron anvil to a Vulcan. I don’t know if the rebound for the next strike is considerable, but having blows that move metal more efficiently would result in less energy from the smith and quicker movement of the stock from less work. That is what I think is so noticeable, but I have such limited experience with good quality anvils and hammers, so I don’t have the experience to be able to form an opinion. I wish there were more members in my area to get exposure. There are a few guys around here, but I have only seen them from other exposure, not active guys on the forum. So I enjoy hearing from the guys here to try and make better choices as I am progressing.

[Glenn]

I found the video by Joey van der Steeg/@TechnicusJoe showing rebound of a ball bearing on an anvil.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME

 

 

[Exo313]

5 hours ago, Frosty said:

If you can't find the rod recommended by Mr. Gunther use a "steel on rock" hard facing rod like that used on crusher drums or dozer blades, it's designed to take impacts and not deform. Proper build up rod works best as well. 

See, I'm curious. 

Stoodite 21-M sounds intriguing. According to the manufacturer it's a work-hardening wire that hardens up to 45 HRC, no cross checking, unlimited number of layers. Used for forging dies, hot shears, and piercing plugs. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Do you have access to a shoot blaster that can do the work hardening?

[Exo313]

That's the problem. I have an air peener but as far as shot blasting goes, all we do is abrasive blasting at work. I'd have to send it out.

I'm also looking at Stoody 965. Good impact, good abrasion, no cross checking. 50-60 HRC as deposited. 

Or I could probably just get some 1105 ordered in.... I'm just less confident in my stick welding (I have gotten far less helmet time in with that process) which is why I've been looking for a comparable wire. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Verify with Soody, but it sounds like that would be a good choice with the proper substrate (about 1/2 way in hardness between the anvil body and the intended work serfaces) As anvils are not typically something repaired in an industrial setting what you are looking for is rod/wire intended for the repair of forging dies. Esentualy that’s what an anvil and hammer are. 

http://www.anvilmag.com/smith/anvilres.htm this is a description of Rob Guthers method. Or more appropriately Sandia labs method. Rocket science applied to blacksmithing or vice versa

When your done remember to round all those crisp sharp edges, they will generate  cold shuts and stress risers. Don’t forget the pritchel and hardie holes. 

Also consider that what some see as defects (a sway back for example) may be an advantage (dead flat surfaces will be difficult to flatten a cold piece like a knife blade, wile a slight concave will get it done but to the “spring” inherent in stock). I’m not saying after all the work to repair the face you should take a grinder to it and carve a divot, but you might consider it, the spot under the hammer is the important spot, so even with a sledge you have a lot of different working spots. 

Steve Sells has a rail anvil on his forge hearth for straitening blades (who are we kidding, swords, he forges swords!), he actually has a shallow divot to aid in this tord one end. I shamelessly included it as well as the 1” graduated marks down the side in my rail iron anvil project.

[Frosty]

If you want scientific data you'll need to go to the manufacturers and do some digging. I did look up the Stoody 965 and once you get away from the ESAB sites can get the info I'm looking for. I don't recall the rod I used last tie I repaired an anvil for a youngster who was just going to FIX it if I didn't so I did. No reason letting him damage his anvil even though I wouldn't have laid a bead on it.

Anyway, Stoody isn't available at my neighborhood supply and I didn't want to drive to Anchorage so picked rod by specs. As I recall it was very much like the Stoody 965 specs. Harder than the 1105  and doesn't check if you don't screw up too badly.

The thing to remember is a good build up rod and 7018 isn't. Proper high impact build up rod is a tough high impact low deformation alloy. If the steel under the hard face can move the hardfacing has to crack or it'll delaminate. For an example lay something thin and brittle like glass on a clean table top and push down on it as hard as you can. NADA. Now put it on a piece of foam rubber and push on it, it'll break. 

Running stick hard facing is good bead running practice, you aren't welding anything together, just sticking the bead. If you need to build right to the edge "chill bars" are a BIG help. Copper bar you clamp to the side of the anvil will stop the bead on contact. If you can find one that fits the hardy hole you're golden, just weld hard against it the hardfacing won't go farther.

There are all kinds of things to know and remember about hardfacing, I know I went to classes but you only need a couple to do a good job on an anvil. No special prep if you're working directly on wrought or cast iron, wire wheel clean Clean CLEAN. Pre heat to 350-400 f. for a slow cooling cycle. If you need more than about 3/8" depth use a good low deformation build up rod. NOT 7018, at under $10.00/lb using the right stuff is a bargain! 

If you have a needle scaler, remove the slag and get a little carried away on the surface. This is or was known as "pinging and relieving" the beating relieves stresses. If you don't have a needle scaler and can't rent or borrow one get carried away with the chipping hammer.

Lay down no more than 2 passes of hardface rod and you're done with the welder.

I ground while it was still HOT and relatively soft. Let it cool and find out why it's called HARDface.

Keep the disk FLAT do NOT tip it up or you'll put an angle on the face near the edges! 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Anachronist58]

If the only object yielding to the impact is the heated steel, and not the hammer nor the anvil, then most of the work is being applied to moving the heated stock, Yes?

Robert Taylor

 

[Exo313]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

The thing to remember is a good build up rod and 7018 isn't

Yeah. I appreciate your analogy re: glass on foam rubber. To be honest, I was coming to similar conclusions based on my original research -before- I followed advice from a gentleman with abrasion resistant hardfacing experience; since we're talking apples and oranges, though, I can see where I went wrong. I had a nagging suspicion leading up to it. Should've trusted my gut more. 

Any issues with doing a proper build-up directly on top of what I've done? My concern is the intact old top plate around the hardy hole.

[Frosty]

Yeah, lots of guys do anti abrasion hardfacing and  build up isn't an issue. Unless you want to grind it back I think you have what you have now. How much thicker do you want to or can go?  If you can lay down another 3/8" before hardfacing then it's no issue, 7018 is more deformation resistant than WI or cast. If you're within 3/8" of the finish depth of the face just hardface it.

If you have 1/2" to go lay a bead of build up down and measure again. I like running long beads rather than across the face but that's my preference not the "right" way. However in this case if you're running one layer of build up rod, laying the beads at 90* to the underlayment and at high amperage will mix the two alloys more thoroughly and give you a little stiffer base. . . maybe.

Find a piece of square copper stock that just slips in the hardy hole for a chill stop and you can weld right up against it. It'll actually stop the bead a bit back from the edge. Have some old copper pipe around? Flatten or cut and flatten it and make a Mokume billet to make a chill stop. No, solder won't work but Ron Reil was forge welding copper a long time ago and it's really easy. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Exo313]

So, my project is on hold for a little bit folks. I totaled my car on Monday and I'm too sore to be doing much grinding. Which is just as well because I haven't gotten the wire ordered in yet anyway. 

[JHCC]

Ouch! Feel better!