pandol clips

[seldom (dick renker)]

just a note of caution for all hands. the new pandol clips that are being used on the railroads instead of spikes are now galvanized. I know there are a lot of folks that try them some use some caution here so that you don't get more than you bargained for.

[Will W.]

Definitely worth noting. Thanks for the heads up. 

[SLAG]

Mr. Renker,

Thank you for the warning concerning zinc coated Pandol clips.

Zinc fumes are toxic as all get out. They can kill a fellow.

Hydrochloric acid (= muriatic acid = HCl) is so cheap that I treat any steel that may be galvanized with it to get rid of the zinc 

Hardware stores and masonry material suppliers sell the acid. 

I carefully deposit the mystery steel into an acid bath. The bath container is sturdy plastic. And I have a tight cover that goes on top. And a big fat warning sign on top of the cover.

The zinc coating reacts with the zinc coating and dissolves in the acid. In other words goodbye zinc coating. That zinc turns into zinc chloride. The zinc chloride dissolves in the acid solution.

Use plastic or rubber gloves or tongs to fish out the steel. The acid reaction can be stopped by placing the steel in a lot of water. If all the acid needs to be neutralized. Then treat the washed part with a water-bicarbonate of soda, solution. That will react with/neutralize any remaining acid to form a salt solution. (NaCl) Brine.

SLAG.

 

[MastaStan]

6 minutes ago, SLAG said:

The zinc coating reacts with the zinc coating and dissolves in the acid. In other words goodbye zinc coating. That zinc turns into zinc chloride. The zinc chloride dissolves in the acid solution.

What do you do to dispose of the hydrochloric acid/zinc mixture?

[Will W.]

You could neutralize the entire solution using something like sodium bicarbonate, but there's really no need.

The amount of zinc found in a gallon of HCl after a few galv removals is miniscule. I would not concern myself with it. 

On top of that, the acid is still good after a few galv treatments, and still has uses. No need to dispose of it. 

[SLAG]

The hydrochloric acid-water solution uses dilute concentrated hydrochloric acid. The small amount of resultant zinc chloride should be in a dilute solution with the water hydrochloric acid solution. The amount of zinc coating is usually not very thick. So there is not much zinc chloride produced.

I just noticed Will W.'s response. He is right.

Also, the solution can be used many times.

Zinc chloride only becomes toxic when it is gaseous form. That will not happen in our scenario. The amount of zinc chloride that is washed off the steel part is minuscule, and should no problem. It can be flushed into the waste water stream.

SLAG.

I just looked up Pandrol Clips rail fastening hardware. Very interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_fastening_system

[Frosty]

Using a vinegar bath can be done without PPE other than glasses and results in no hazmat disposal problem. Let word get out you're disposing of hcl zinc solution in any concentration and you're likely to hear about it perhaps through your check book. Safe or not the environmental movement has power whether they know what a particular hazard really is or not. For example Most paved roads use asphalt macadam, "blacktop" yes? Remove it from the road and it's a hazmat and MUST be disposed of in any number of complicated expensive ways. I THINK the blacktop hazmat foolishness has been corrected but that kind of silliness still prevails.

Slag is undoubtedly right about the real hazard but he isn't the one who's going to decide if it's legal and if you should pay a piper. 

I'm not disagreeing, just saying.

Weathered galvanizing is easy to spot, if it's ash gray it's galvanized. If it's shiny silver with large visible crystal pattern it's hot dipped and reasonably fresh, check out a new galvy bucket. Electroplated zinc can be gold colored but is usually chromed over. Chrome plating is clear, your bumper is nickle plated polished and chromed to protect it. The mottled gold colored nuts, bolts, washers, etc. are chrome over galvanizing. I don't know what turns zinc gold but that's just one on a long LOONG list of things I don't know. 

None of the above platings are something you want to breathe and because cadmium plating is also gold and is exceptionally toxic, short and long term toxic in very small doses just don't mess with shiny gold stuff. I believe cadmium is no longer used to plate in the USA but every now and then China or one of the other lax quality control countries just doesn't notice cad plated goods exorted to the US. Remember a few years ago all the toys that were recalled because they were ALL cad plated to simulate gold? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

zinc chloride solution was a low temperature flux for soldering; one of my old Farm Shop textbooks discusses making it that way...

[SLAG]

Frosty,

I made the assumption that most users would be de galvanizing a small number of steel pieces. All bets are off should a potential user be contemplating treating hundreds of pounds of galvanized steel.

Your operative phrase is " ... in any concentration ...". Well said.

You raise a good point about chromium and cadmium salts. They way more toxic than zinc chloride. Orders of magnitude more poisonous and persistent.

I should take heed and not mess with any chromed metal pieces.

You bring up an interesting point about spent road asphalt. It is a problem.

But spent asphalt disposal will soon be a thing of the past. In the last five or seven years, economic asphalt recuperative processes have been developed. Much of the worn out tarmac asphalt is reusable. Only a small %  was of no value. Not so anymore, it is economical now. That process is already in use.

On a personal note, I challenge anyone to sue me for the disposal of tiny amounts of spent zinc chloride. The doctrine of "De Minimis Not Curat Lex" springs to mind. It translates to "the Law does not involve itself with trifles". That shall be only one lines of defense, & it will, also, figure prominently in a vigorous countersuit. (perhaps even in disbarment proceedings raised against plaintiff's counsel for abuse of the judicial process.).

Most of this post is academic conjecture.

But not messing with chrome and also cadmium plated metal is a very important point, & I am glad it was mentioned.

Thanks,

SLAG.

T. P. You are correct ZnCl is used as a powerful flux.

It is also used as an ingredient in mouth wash and is also used in "Febreze" fabric refreshener, and as fire proof treatment.

 

[ThomasPowers]

"Farm Shop Practice" Mack M Jones Professor of Agricultural Engineering, copyright 1939

"Zinc Chloride, or cut acid, as it is frequently called, is a common flux that can be used on most metals. It may be prepared as follows:

1. Drop small pieces of zinc into a bottle about 1/2 full of muriatic acid, adding more pieces from time to time until no more zinc will dissolve and there is a slight excess of zinc left in the bottle. The resulting liquid is zinc chloride. (excising suggests on finding zinc that are no longer valid...)

2. After all chemical action has stopped, strain the zinc chloride through a cloth, or allow the dirt to settle and pour off the clear liquid.

3. Dilute the zinc chloride with one-fourth to one-half its volume of water.

Care should be taken to not get the acid on the hands or clothing. Neither acid nor zinc chloride should be kept around tools; nor should zinc chloride be made around tools as the vapour or fumes will cause severe corrosion."

TP: this is NOT a flux for soldering electronics!  

[ausfire]

10 hours ago, SLAG said:

 

I carefully deposit the mystery steel into an acid bath. The bath container is sturdy plastic. And I have a tight cover that goes on top. And a big fat warning sign on top of the cover.

SLAG.

I do much the same to get rid of zinc. However, the tight cover you mention could be a bit of a hazard, couldn't it? I just recall seeing the vigorous exothermic reaction of acid and zinc and I would think the resultant gases would build up a fair bit of pressure if contained. Perhaps not, but I always have the reaction vented to air. 

[SmoothBore]

10 hours ago, SLAG said:

The doctrine of "De Minimis Not Curat Lex" springs to mind. It translates to "the Law does not involve itself with trifles". That shall be only one lines of defense, & it will, also, figure prominently in a vigorous countersuit. (perhaps even in disbarment proceedings raised against plaintiff's counsel for abuse of the judicial process.).

I'm sure that's true.

But I'm equally certain, that points of Law become meaningless, in a politically driven agenda.

If the "powers-that-be" want you, ... they will get you, ... and trivial, archaic concepts, ... like "Equal Justice Under the Law" will not deter them.

Better to keep your own council, ... and maintain a low-profile.

 

.

[JHCC]

10 hours ago, Frosty said:

Using a vinegar bath can be done without PPE other than glasses and results in no hazmat disposal problem.

For household vinegar (5% acetic acid), yes. If you get the extra-strong stuff ("horticultural" or "cleaning" vinegar, 20% or more), take extra precautions (gloves, etc). Vinegar + galvy = zinc acetate, which is also pretty benign.

[SLAG]

Aus,

My use of the phrase "tight cover" was not clear.

I did not mean gas tight. Just tight enough to keep the critters and kidlets out.

I am glad that you pointed that out.

It is impressive how ambiguous 'plain language' can be.

Regards,

SLAG.

Do inland taipans make good pets?

[Frosty]

Cool, this thread is refining the point nicely. Safe. You're right Slag, IF you can get a case to court you can usually hammer idgits with fact and law. Unfortunately the folk who are the real problem are the folk you see on TV and hear on the Radio, the ones who don't really have a clue what they're talking about but they're going to make the world a safer place. Alaska is filled with folk who's intentions are good and are very outspoken but they don't know enough to do good. This state is so tied up with red tape and not all legal, often the main bulk is authorities trying to "investigate" concerns of the public. It's usually a neighbor who doesn't want someone to clear trees because it'll mess up their view and the gvt. actually entertains this bull. 

That's what happened to how environmentally deadly removed asphalt is. The original complaints were about it being reused, someone was getting cheated and the "concerned" citizens went public with loud and dire complaints. The lily livered folk in GVT. are NOT about to answer questions if they can avoid it and the safest answer for a bureaucrat is "NO." This is what forced construction and paving companies to dispose of old or left over asphalt pavement at the dump. Paving and construction companies finally got the case to court and the idiocy of NOT recycling old pavement just hammered the "concerns" flat. Recycled pavement isn't acceptable for class 2 and above roads but you'd better believe it makes "paving" your driveway affordable.

For 3rd class and lower roads it makes it really affordable to keep the pavement in good condition. Rotomill the existing pavement, sometimes to the base even. Right next to the rotomill are 20 yard dump trucks which go to the asphalt batch plant. The recovered ground pavement is heated to 350f, additional asphalt is added if necessary, loaded into a 20 yard side dump and heads back to the project. In the mean time the freshly exposed grade has been treated as necessary and the paver is spreading the overlay. Side dumps are preferred over belly dumps as they don't track up the tack coat or the remaining asphalt in front of the paver. Anyway it sumps the freshly recycled material and sometimes just pulls ahead to the rotomill for the next load to go to the plant.

The really high dollar companies have the batch plant taking the ground pavement directly from the rotomill and loading trucks on the other side. 

It isn't the folk who really know what's dangerous that are the problem it's the folk who are  Dunning Kruger  poster children that are the problem.

Low profile is the key to  minimal problems. Just don't poison the environment please, lots of stuff is long term nasty stuff. Take a little time and find out what you've got.

Frosty The Lucky.

[SLAG]

Frosty good friend,

Sounds like Alaska is the place that I should have considered for domicile and career years ago. (but then again I'm not sure if there was enough patent law to maintain a practice there).

You might be surprised at the cost of a legal retainer requested, up-front before a law firm will look at a legal matter. It could be a truly eye-watering revelation

Most of the time, I did not don armor, claymore and battle fools. But, there sometimes is a situation where aggressive action is the best path. 

I very occasionally did so to silence a very obnoxious pest or to establish a reputation for aggression where the situation merited it. (the Canadian Patent Office probably still remembers me, also some folks in the Canadian Federal bureaucracy ).

Subsequently, I was treated with fairness and respect, until I retired. (as I afforded them the same before, during and after). Ah the fun times a while ago.).

For the obnoxious, officious, neighbors, mention the terms, maintenance (The offence of aiding a party in a legal action without lawful cause.), champerty, abuse of process & the court, countersuit and counterclaim, slander (& probably libel), with a dash of the doctrine of 'innuendo', and a whole raft of other legal concepts and doctrines. 

I could have helped you hammer a few obnoxious neighbors years back.

Incidentally, your explanation of asphalt reuse is most interesting. Thanks for the information.

Best regards to all,

SLAG.

p.s. my law practice was mainly concerned with patents, licensing in the pharma and biotech areas.

My apologies to Mr. Renker for sidetracking his thread.

 

[Stash]

Interesting side note here (Hijack of a hijack?), I was watching a supposedly ethical businessman/ blacksmith do a demo on decorating bolt heads using large galv bolts. He said that you just throw a few at a time into the gas forge to burn off the zinc....  Now, outside of football, I usually don't yell at the TV, but I cut loose when I heard that. I stopped the program, and don't plan on watching that channel any time soon. That is irresponsible nonsense to be advocating to people who might not know any better.

OK, rant over. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Steve

[Frosty]

3 hours ago, Stash said:

Interesting side note here (Hijack of a hijack?), I was watching a supposedly ethical businessman/ blacksmith do a demo on decorating bolt heads using large galv bolts. He said that you just throw a few at a time into the gas forge to burn off the zinc....  Now, outside of football, I usually don't yell at the TV, but I cut loose when I heard that. I stopped the program, and don't plan on watching that channel any time soon. That is irresponsible nonsense to be advocating to people who might not know any better.

OK, rant over. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Steve

What was the name of the program and channel? It'd be worth steering new guys clear of, we warn folks off dangerous youtube videos and people. Yes?

Frosty The Lucky.

[seldom (dick renker)]

yes the thread got hijacked, however the information the came out of the hijacking was pertinate to the subject of galvanized material and the dangers to are involved so I'm not too concerned. not the first time nor will it be the last time.

 

[Frosty]

I TOLD you Dick was harder to rile up than that Guys! Maybe next time this certainly wasn't the last. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[seldom (dick renker)]

frosty, good info came out so why get cranked about it. lifes to darned short.

[Frosty]

I wasn't REALLY complaining about you not getting riled up Dick.  I'm glad you don't or you'd be yelling at me all the time and that'd suck. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Stash]

I'm not really keen on breaking out the 'boycott bat' and taking a big ol' swing at this guy. Sure he presented a dangerous idea, but I feel it is just as important for those of us who know better to preach that gospel loud and clear so that when a newbie sees that stuff on you tube, forged in fire, live demos, etc, he will know better.  At this point I'm going this route.

Steve

[Frosty]

Some videos deserve no better than loud warnings. So how is a warning taking a big ol' swing at anybody. He might be a good guy but his practices in THIS video are endangering folk who don't know better. 

What do you recommend? How do you counter dangerous practices other than to warn people off? I'm all ears (or eyeballs in this case) Come up with something effective. Please.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Stash]

I tend to counter dangerous practices by using whatever soapbox I have access to and making sure the safe word gets out. This is something that is evident on this forum- if something is unsafe, the group here will get the word out loud and clear. That is a big part of the service we are able to offer to the community. I will correct or admonish an action  when I am there in person to do it. Another option would be to add a comment where space is provided.

Steve