Forges 1st fire...the results

[CHUCK M]

Total beginner, just finished my first forging session.  Pretty happy with the results, but what a humbling experience it was.  Forged the hook first, then the s hook out of 3/8 square....probably took me a little more than 2 hours to forge.  I don't think I was heating the metal up enough or was having to much surface contact with the anvil, was loosing my heat very quickly.  Also, had a xxxx of time trying to hold onto the piece doing the 2nd side with pliers, which marred up the metal, definitely have to work on coordination.  Any advice or critiques would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

[JHCC]

That's actually quite nice. You obviously have a good eye, and it's just a matter of bringing up your skill level. Practice, practice, practice.

[ThomasPowers]

Good hook; did you bend the ends freehand?

[Lou L]

Awesome.  All I can say is what I've learned the hard way:  Having the right tools to hold your work will make you better way faster than having a sweet hammer or anvil will.  Struggling with hot steel while trying to shape it is exasperating.  

[CHUCK M]

Thanks for the kind words.

5 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Good hook; did you bend the ends freehand?

Yea, just the hammer and anvil.

[Al Stephens]

You've made a good start. I still have my first "s" hook, it's an antique now! The best advise I ever received was to connect with a local blacksmith group, even if you have to expand "local" to several hours travel. I have learned most of what I know by my association with other smiths, and I bet there is someone in the group that will show you how to make tongs. With good tongs, things become way easier, and practice,practice, practice.

Al 

[ThomasPowers]

Nice bends---you have a good eye and nice control.

[Frosty]

Nice job Chuck, well done! Those are darned long tapers, getting them smooth and even isn't easy and yours are very nice. The bends are even and well matched. I don't see anything to critique. A little practice and we'll be asking you for advice.

You need to find a pair or two of tongs and have someone show you some of the tricks that make this stuff easier and faster. For a quick pair of tongs that'll get you by till you start making them search , "twist tongs". These are quick and dirty but functional tongs you can make with a hand drill vise and big crescent wrench. If you have access to a welder you can even make wolf jaw and side bit twist tongs.

When you're drawing those long tapers are you drawing them square then rounding them up when they're finished? Drawing tapers round is intuitive but not the better method. Square, octagonal, round. is another thing to search on the web.

Frosty The Lucky.

[CHUCK M]

29 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Nice job Chuck, well done! Those are darned long tapers, getting them smooth and even isn't easy and yours are very nice. The bends are even and well matched. I don't see anything to critique. A little practice and we'll be asking you for advice.

You need to find a pair or two of tongs and have someone show you some of the tricks that make this stuff easier and faster. For a quick pair of tongs that'll get you by till you start making them search , "twist tongs". These are quick and dirty but functional tongs you can make with a hand drill vise and big crescent wrench. If you have access to a welder you can even make wolf jaw and side bit twist tongs.

When you're drawing those long tapers are you drawing them square then rounding them up when they're finished? Drawing tapers round is intuitive but not the better method. Square, octagonal, round. is another thing to search on the web.

Frosty The Lucky.

I will check those tongs out no welder yet...I drew them out square then went octogon then to round.

and thanks everybody for the confidence boost.  Probably going to be making some punches and drifts next...was thinking of making a single thread to post my stuff all in one place...I have seen others doing this, would this be received well or considered bad etiquette?

[Frosty]

Naw, posting your progress in your own thread is excellent, just remember we LOVE pictures and you're off to a good start. This is a fine thread to use, no need for another unless you have a specific project you want to archive as a stand alone. 

We're happy to help, you're on track, keep a it, we're pulling for you.

Frosty The Lucky.

[CHUCK M]

Had 2 more 1-2 hour forging sessions this week, definitely more downs than ups.  Wanted to try a different hammer so I ordered a diamond rounding hammer spent about an hour dressing it, to decent shape.  Decided to put together the flat jaw quick tongs I got off ebay, so pounded out the reins, twisted the jaws....tried to thin and shape the jaws, was a complete failure, so just hot riveted and I guess no shame in finishing with the angle grinder.  So, then tried to forge a leaf key chain using the Brian Brazeal 2 sided taper with 1/2" square,  had a hard time moving the metal to form the far shoulder and realized too late that I didn't leave enough material for the leaf.  Continued on and the near side shoulder wasn't forming right then when trying to thin out in between, metal wasn't going anywhere, gave up when it started to twist.  Was starting to feel a little down, needed a win so decided to forge another hook, and came out beautiful, my taper was much better this time. 

[Mark Ling]

very nice hook. yeah, leafs took me a while to get down. It is sometimes difficult to get clean shoulders/set downs. about 100 leaves later and I'm pleased with the overall shape of my leaves, you just keep at it and you will get it. it took about 10 tries before I got something that looked sorta like a leaf. my first leaf took me about 1-1/2 hours, and now its about 7-10 minutes. try 3/8 square.

   you are doing very well, I am enjoying seeing your progress. I have high hopes for you, I cant wait to see stuff your making a year from now.

                                                                                                                     Littleblacksmith

[lyuv]

I"m a newbie too. Started pretty much like you (I guess) - got basic tools, watched youtube and started hammering. Eventualy I did manage to make a leaf, but after few weeks I realised I didn't realy know what I was doing, and needed REAL guideness. So I took a 5 days blacksmithing class, which was a HUGE stepping stone,

I guess it's possible to be self taught. But it takes long time, with the risk of picking all sort of wrong and bad habits. I STRONGLY suggest such a class.

[CHUCK M]

16 hours ago, littleblacksmith said:

very nice hook. yeah, leafs took me a while to get down. It is sometimes difficult to get clean shoulders/set downs. about 100 leaves later and I'm pleased with the overall shape of my leaves, you just keep at it and you will get it. it took about 10 tries before I got something that looked sorta like a leaf. my first leaf took me about 1-1/2 hours, and now its about 7-10 minutes. try 3/8 square.

   you are doing very well, I am enjoying seeing your progress. I have high hopes for you, I cant wait to see stuff your making a year from now.

                                                                                                                     Littleblacksmith

thanks, going to try the 3/8 next time and see how it goes...will certainly post the pics.  Seen one of your recent posts, stuff looked amazing.

6 hours ago, lyuv said:

I"m a newbie too. Started pretty much like you (I guess) - got basic tools, watched youtube and started hammering. Eventualy I did manage to make a leaf, but after few weeks I realised I didn't realy know what I was doing, and needed REAL guideness. So I took a 5 days blacksmithing class, which was a HUGE stepping stone,

I guess it's possible to be self taught. But it takes long time, with the risk of picking all sort of wrong and bad habits. I STRONGLY suggest such a class.

I would love to take a class, been searching around online, havent found much and what i did find are all booked till the end of the year. Still going to keep looking though.

[Mark Ling]

9 minutes ago, CHUCK M said:

thanks, going to try the 3/8 next time and see how it goes...will certainly post the pics.  Seen one of your recent posts, stuff looked amazing.

Oh, and I mean 3/8" square, 3/8" round will give you a much smaller leaf than what you are probably wanting.

Thank you!

                                                                                         Littleblacksmith 

[JME1149]

Looking at the leaf attempt, I might have a couple suggestions that could help. Only rotate the bar to set-down the leaf part 0° and 90° (not all four sides), and it looks like you may have had your tong hand too high. When doing the set-down, hold the bar at a lower angle to the anvil face (looks like you may have been lifted up at 45°). This will give you a more defined shoulder. Only work the mild steel in the orange-yellow range, when it drops down into the reds it fights you more. You can straighten that twist out pretty easy when the bar is hot.

Get yourself a block of modeling clay to practice on, moves a lot like hot metal without wasting the fuel and heating time.

[CHUCK M]

35 minutes ago, littleblacksmith said:

Oh, and I mean 3/8" square, 3/8" round will give you a much smaller leaf than what you are probably wanting.

Thank you!

                                                                                         Littleblacksmith 

You mentioned square in your post, i have a few feet of it, good to go.

 

18 minutes ago, JME1149 said:

Looking at the leaf attempt, I might have a couple suggestions that could help. Only rotate the bar to set-down the leaf part 0° and 90° (not all four sides), and it looks like you may have had your tong hand too high. When doing the set-down, hold the bar at a lower angle to the anvil face (looks like you may have been lifted up at 45°). This will give you a more defined shoulder. Only work the mild steel in the orange-yellow range, when it drops down into the reds it fights you more. You can straighten that twist out pretty easy when the bar is hot.

Get yourself a block of modeling clay to practice on, moves a lot like hot metal without wasting the fuel and heating time.

i was only doing the 90* turns, but i think i was holding it at a higher angle....will definitely try to keep it lower next time.  I try like hell to only work the steel at forging temp but in my noobness, loose heat really quickly, have to work on surface area contact.  Thank you for the advice.

[Mark Ling]

Whoops, I hadn't reread the post, and I thought I handnt, sorry.

also half on half off hammer blows, that matters a lot, it makes a big difference between making a Tennon and a set down

                                                                                          Littleblacksmith 

[Lou L]

20 hours ago, JME1149 said:

Looking at the leaf attempt, I might have a couple suggestions that could help. Only rotate the bar to set-down the leaf part 0° and 90° (not all four sides), and it looks like you may have had your tong hand too high. When doing the set-down, hold the bar at a lower angle to the anvil face (looks like you may have been lifted up at 45°). This will give you a more defined shoulder. Only work the mild steel in the orange-yellow range, when it drops down into the reds it fights you more. You can straighten that twist out pretty easy when the bar is hot.

Get yourself a block of modeling clay to practice on, moves a lot like hot metal without wasting the fuel and heating time.

The modeling clay idea is something not to be ignored.  Recently I've been working on a set of dies for making two sided leaves and I started using my kids' PlayDoh to test them.  The act of shaping the basic leaf I wanted over and over in PlayDoh actually showed me about how much stock I needed on the steel bar to get the same thing.  It really helped me to see the steel for its volume rather than its two-dimensional characteristics.  So, play with clay!

[Frosty]

Modeling clay is ideal for modeling forgings. You want the stiff clay or chill it in the fridge, it'll warm in your hands but you want more resistance than soft clay. I have a dirty old wad of modeling clay I keep in the shop, it's starting to get enough sharp bits in it I'll have to replace it with new. Heck I already have a package with 4 colors so I can play with pattern development. I have a bunch of old band saw blades and steel strapping but I have virtually no experience making good patterns with welded steel. I'll play with colored modeling clay first. It's  HUGE labor saver.

All good observations and advice so far. What I see in your piece is a normal beginner's mistake. A big part of hammer control is teaching your reflexes (muscle memory) to strike the same place every time and hold the work steady. The hammer marks on your work show you chasing the work with the hammer. This is normal, everybody does it in the beginning. You are swinging with your whole body, just like you were taught to swing a baseball bat, golf club, pick, sledge hammer, etc.Put your back into it! is the wrong thing to do at the anvil. Develop hammer control first, power comes later. Uncontrolled power is just damage in action. 

Does that make sense? How to and tips follow.

Do NOT move your feet. Keep your elbows stuck to your side, same spot, do not move your arms around at ALL. Just a vertical swing, put a little snap into the blow with your wrist. As a health issue keep your thumb OFF the handle! We'll go into that later if you'd like to know the joint and soft tissue damage that CAN lead to. 

Keeping your elbows against your side, your feet stuck to the floor and your shoulders immobile is called "indexing" this is a set position that allows consistent results. Rehearse your stance, mark it with chalk if necessary, it's THAT important. Position your holding and hammer hand before you put the piece in the fire so you don't stand there with the steel cooling while you think. Practice stepping away, learn where the MOST CONVENIENT place to lay your hammer. I like mine on the anvil with the handle pointed just off my right hip and the face I want to use pointed away. I can swing into position and it's right where my hand is. Remember, what works for you is what counts. Yes?

It sounds silly to practice blacksmithing with a cold forge but it works to rehearse your moves. Your work will lose heat FAST as soon as you draw it from the fire so you want to be ready to "Strike while the iron is HOT," it's not just a saying to us.  

In the interests of heat management and having HOT steel to hammer, Do NOT lay it on the anvil till you're ready to hit it! Position it by eye, just the briefest touch will align the impact face of the work you're hammering with the anvil face, same with a shoulder, if you have already marked it then it's easy to let the mark drop on the edge of the anvil. Just NO NOT lay it on the anvil while you grab your hammer and think about what you want to do!  

Ideally you can leave your right foot in position at your anvil, pivot to the forge and draw the work with your left hand, holding your hammer in your right hand. Pivot back into YOUR position, index the work on the anvil, moving your whole body, your elbows are glued to your side (remember?) and strike steel that's only been out of the fire for 3-4 seconds or less. Hmmm?

I know that's a lot to think about but rehearse it makes a big difference. I've been a hobbyist smith for a good 50 years, mostly self taught till the early '80s. It's not a good thing to go it alone, in fact it sucks. Side tracing again, sorry. The bolded text is just for emphasis, I'm not shouting, it's just important enough to remember.

If I were teaching classes I'd have the students practicing drawing the work from the forge and addressing the anvil to the Tennessee Waltz, it's one of my favorites. Blacksmithing IS a dance with fire, steel and tools, feel the rhythm, learn the steps. Avoid break dancing okay? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

It is worth looking at the old manuals that show hor to block out blanks for rail road shops. This I'd power hammer 101 but usefull for hand work. Amazing how a well strategic fuller or hack sets the stage, or pointing a bar. Let's imagine forging a gardeners hand rake. You split the bar in thirds, leaving mor meat in the out pieces. Then by fullering behing the splits one not only sets the stage for the tang but create a smothe transition for the prongs. Learning to look at a project from gross steps to fine realy helps. 

Setting up your shop with an effecent work triangle is important, and as a forge has two sides, two work triangles are even better, being a right handed person I acualy prefer to crank or pump from the right, so my left hand is free to manipulate the stock with or with out tongs. Being that's the hand that I will use at the anvil anyway. 

Spend the time reheating to visualize the next step, you save heat knowing the next step, as well as practice holding the stock a fraction above the anvil and driving it in. 

Use some kind off fuller to aplly the most hammer mas to the smallest mass of hot steel, and for the fire gods sake learn to only forge hot steel, red heat is for straining and plannishing.

[CHUCK M]

Frosty, Charles R. Stevens, Lou L  Thanks everyone for the tips, these are not short replies so i appreciate the time invested to write these.  I will try to put all of these to use, some observations i have made about my short sessions after reading this.  1. i definitely try to put to much power into my hammer swings (baseball bat reference is the truth)  2. i think certainly i am not getting my steel hot enough, i dont think i have ever let it get to yellow (i feel this is because in my head, i have such limited forging time that i try to hurry...obviously this is not working, will have to start exercising patience during heats).  3. need to take a step back and think about whats going on and "visualize" what i am doing (think i am suffering from newbie excitement).  

will try to get out to the shop tonight to make a 2nd attempt at the leaf (just going for a leaf shaped object), but unfortunately i don't think the weather is going to cooperate.  Might just have to play with the kids playdoh instead....

[Lou L]

Wow Frosty,  that was one info packed post!  You said everything a beginning smith should practice pretty concisely.  It should be added to a sticky somewhere.

I practiced indexing naturally because it is in my nature because of the martial arts and discus throwing.  I tend to index my movements in everything I'd do: taking a shower, washing dishes, etc...   I always try to find efficiencies when I move.  That being said, I am capable of some pretty aggressive hammering when I want to get the most out of a heat.  I just focus on keeping my elbow in the same plane and keeping my wrist/grip loose so it snaps.

Chuck M, don't be afraid to let the practice pieces get to yellow hot.  It's best to learn how to burn steel while practicing.  Maybe I'm crazy, but I think,you aren't doing it right until you see the fairies sparking out of a piece of practice steel.  Just don't start hammering hard on them unless you are ready for some hot metal pieces to fly.  You will quickly learn the feel of your own forge.  Remember that the steel reheats a lot quicker on subsequent heats so, if you get it yellow hot and forge down to red then return it to the fire, it will be yellow again pretty quickly.  You will find you only have enough time to set up a tool, put something away and plan your next strikes in your head.  Then it will be ready.  You will find the dance that Frosty described.  Good luck and have fun.  And don't skimp out on the personal protective gear.

Lou

[arkie]

On 8/16/2017 at 1:40 PM, CHUCK M said:

thanks, going to try the 3/8 next time and see how it goes...will certainly post the pics.  Seen one of your recent posts, stuff looked amazing.

I would love to take a class, been searching around online, havent found much and what i did find are all booked till the end of the year. Still going to keep looking though.

Chuck, in lieu of taking classes, have you checked into any blacksmithing clubs or organizations in your area?  You can get some great, FREE instructions from experienced smiths and most are eager to teach their skills to those needing the instructions.  Meetings in our area are scattered over quite a large area and members often travel 2 hours or more to attend the monthly meetings just for that reason.  It's warming to see someone experience that "Ah,,, hah!!" moment when they see how something is properly done, and then they do it themselves.

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

You need to dress that cross pein...