John McPherson Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Offer to make a concrete replica of the K6 Hispano Suiza and see how that goes over..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exo313 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 I feel far less animosity towards collectors than some; they're mostly delaying recirculation is all. The true impact on the prices of smithing equipment is probably, local factors notwithstanding, newcomers to the hobby. Once you have that first anvil, you don't pay as much for the second one. How many times have we seen 800+ USD dropped on a 200lb anvil? 4 bucks a pound might even seem "reasonable" in some areas. Craigslist shysters are eager to get top dollar, most of the time. And with newcomers always looking for that perfect anvil, it's a seller's market. But new blood is a good thing, I'm thinking. Maybe one of a hundred newbies reinvests into the art for future generations; that's how we carry on. I doubt collectors are hurting us that much... except maybe with regards to the ever painful stab of anvil envy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reeltree Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Just brought this home from an auction 2.10 per pound, 157# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 8 hours ago, John McPherson said: Offer to make a concrete replica of the K6 Hispano Suiza and see how that goes over..... Was it something I said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 If you are in an anvil poor area one big collector can "corner the market" keeping new people from entering the craft as they don't know that smithing was done for several thousand years before the London Pattern anvil was developed. If you can get out to Quad-State some time and see several hundred anvils for sale in one place. The first time our local collector attended he bought 30 anvils and a trailer to haul them 1500 miles home! Any time I get to go I try to find a decent postvise at a good price and carry it home to pass on to a student and increase the number out here. (I do not know of any K6 Hispano Suiza rich areas and would probably not be allowed to enter them anyway.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Ha ha, check the factory history Thomas, it is an eye opener and has little to do with what you understand as Hispano in the US. It is the unknown RollsRoyce and still operating in France. A K6 goes for 400,000 to 600,000 when the collectors are distracted. Spain France and Italy would be the places to check out. Coincidentally many great anvils come from the same countries. May be I can go an buy my K6 and smuggle a pair of anvils in the boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greebe Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 On 3/3/2018 at 9:16 PM, ThomasPowers said: If you are in an anvil poor area one big collector can "corner the market" keeping new people from entering the craft as they don't know that smithing was done for several thousand years before the London Pattern anvil was developed. That is my feeling. There are only so many anvils remaining, and that is one of the biggest investments to getting into the craft these days. I have talked to a lot of young people who want to get into smithing, but cannot find or afford the asking price of anvils. The only reason they are more scarce and expensive is because people want to collect them and horde a pile of them in a building somewhere that will never get used. If you took all these horded anvils and put them back into circulation then there would be a lot more young people getting into the craft which I see as a good thing. In a sense I feel that collectors are choking the life out of the craft and keeping new people from getting into it which is a shame. I have most of the equipment I need including an old anvil, but I would love to have a nicer shape anvil that is also bigger then the one I have now. However they never come up for sale in my area, and on the rare occasion when they do, the prices are extremely high because the collector/hording market is so rampant. I just cannot see the rational to this type of behavior. I guess people are missing something in their life and try to fill it with more stuff, in this case anvils or other tools. Once the collector buys another one, the joy quickly fades and they are off to find another one to try to fill the void in their life. Kind of sad when you look at the psychology behind it and how it negatively impacts he craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 22 minutes ago, Greebe said: There are only so many anvils remaining, and that is one of the biggest investments to getting into the craft these days. New anvils are still being made, and any number of different chunks of steel make perfectly acceptable anvil substitutes. Anyone who doesn’t have the money for a standard anvil (new or used) and can’t find or make an alternative is suffering either from ignorance or a lack of imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Greebe: Many of the anvil collectors have rescued more from the scrapper than taken "off the market." If the new folk you know can't get into the craft because they can't find what they think an anvil should be. Perhaps they should seek advice elsewhere. Anything you beat on is an anvil. PERIOD. The tools don't do anything without a human mind and thumbs. All they are otherwise is highly refined dirt. I've done a LOT of smithing between a cobble and a boulder with found steel and a camp fire. The sad psychology is folk who think tools do the work and fail at tasks for nothing more valid than the lack of trying. How about you do them a service and sent them here where we can show them how to actually BE blacksmiths? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I think you missed my point. A new smith can waltz down to the Scrapyard in Polvadera NM and get a great anvil for US$16---an 80# piece of 4x4x8" steel What's limiting them is their idea that they have to use a style of anvil that has been in use for less than 10% of the times folks have been smithing. Or friends of mine built an anvil from a scrounged forklift tine, cost them US$25 and weighed over 100# and didn't need a stump. If shows like IFI really wanted to help the craft they should have one where everyone has to use a non-london pattern "improvised" anvil. Shoot we get folks out here selling I beam torched to look somewhat like a london pattern anvil for over $100 and much worse than the aforementioned 4x4x8" one for $16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 One thing that collectors do is keep them out of the newbies who want to weld then up, or grind them down flat with sharp edges, and then polish them up. Many new anvils are reasonably priced and in some cases less expensive than an old one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greebe Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 You guys are absolutely right. If someone really wants to get into blacksmithing they can do it with found items. Not disputing that. When I was a kid I started on an anvil my dad made out of a section of railroad track and used a oxy-acetylene torch. Like I said I have the equipment I need, I have just run a number of people discouraged by not being able to find tools that do not demand a premium. For instance one of the few anvils that came up recently on craigslist was 85 lbs or so, had most of one side broken off, and the guy was asking $600. Just for kicks I sent him a message, he wrote back and said he sold it to a collector. Go figure. Yes there are new anvils, but I would not consider $1000-$1500 for a 165lb anvil reasonably priced for most people wanting to get into blacksmithing. Even the wee little 77lb Peddinghaus is a $1000. I am not looking for a fight, but you can't tell me that collectors who have over 600 anvils sitting in a storage building aren't making prices higher and making it harder for new smiths to get into the craft because of the lack of being able to find tools. Come to Minnesota and you will see how scare tools are for the blacksmith and how the collector market has made what is available extremely expensive. I mean really, who needs to have over 600 anvils? That makes no sense. That would be kind of like buying 600 houses just to sit on them and not let people have a roof over their heads even when there are more people then houses. What is the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 So the problem still is not the high price of London Pattern anvils; but rather that folks think they need one to start. How do we address that! Back 20 or so years ago one of the SOFA smiths used to demo at meetings using a section of shaft from a large item. It was around 8" in diameter? and 6 inches thick and his stand would hold it flat or on edge. SOFA has a more than enough anvils to use but he did it to show folks they didn't need the LPA! Honest Bob Cruickshank Hope we're both around at Quad-State this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greebe Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 We just need a prominent figure in the community to say that a large round hardened steel shaft is better then an anvil. Paging Hofi, Brazeal. Hehe! One question though, what would you do if your slab o steel did not have a horn? I know the horn of my anvil gets used a lot and it would make work much harder if I did not have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 A brand new, never been used, anvil today goes for a month or maybe two months of rent. At the end of 30 days, all you have is a canceled check, and another rent payment. Reference US Residential Rent and Rental Statistics Let us put this into perspective for driving a car. Reference USA Today April 16, 2013. A new AAA reports shows, on average, the cost of driving 15,000 miles a year rose 1.17 cents to 60.8 cents per mile, or $9,122 per year. That same money spent to drive a car for a year, could purchase several new anvils. Invest the money into an anvil and it should last a lifetime, or more, and pay for itself many times over. And you do not NEED a London pattern or double horn anvil. All you NEED is a mass of 75 to 100 pounds to beat on. Thomas Powers pays 20 cents per pound or $15 to $20 for a working anvil. No one ever ask what brand anvil you used, or what weight anvil you used, and then paid more for an item that was for sale. They only want the item at what they think is a fair price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 At a public demo, I used a hole that was cut 8 inches diameter in a piece of 6 inch plate steel. Laid it flat on a stump and had a working surface or face, and turn it on edge for a 4 inch radius round surface that could be used as a horn. Do not build a box. Stop looking for something with a name and start seeing things with possibilities. A portable hole, a hardie plate, and 3 inches of everything you can find with a round shape from 1 inch on up in size, can serve as individual horns. Pipe will work as will shafting, round bar, and the list goes on and on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 In a country like Australia where health is expected to be free, my wife is many times confronted with patients who complain about having to pay the specialist a few hundred dollars, because they don't automatically see someone for free but you need to pay and then claim it back on Medicare and you don't get it all back. She occasionally asks the patient ... do you have a car? How much was it the last time you took it for a service? And if you need to replace it how much is it going to be? The analogy of a person's own health and the car, and the comparison of the expenses in both fields is a debate killer. With some exceptions of course, The analogy of a car versus an anvil is even more astounding. One of my grandkids asked me last week if I can lend him $5000 to buy a car so he can start his carpenter's apprenticeship. With the prices we are saddled here for cars, he will be able to buy a 20 yo Toyota Ute with 100,000 km or more. A massive 460 lb Refflinghaus is $4000 US ( and a tad cheaper if you buy direct from Germany freight included) Considering that such would be the top anvil you can ever dream of buying in an over the top size, and that you can buy a 220 lb Reffi for $2000, the rest of the anvil would be south of that price and be in the fraction of the price of a bomb to drive around. Everything in perspective, you can safely say that the proverbial anvil is cheap after all. Think in your car, then think anvil ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greebe Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Yes everything is according to each individuals perspective. As a business owner of a machine shop I am far too familiar with expensive tooling, and blacksmithing tools such as an anvil is a drop in the bucket compared to my other tooling. For example, one face mill among dozens, can easily cost $500-$800 but is payed off in a few jobs. This does not include the machine to use it in which costs many tens of thousands of dollars. Blacksmithing for me is just a hobby. I think the most I ever made in a year was around $8,000 just playing at it and my anvil suites me fine for most of what I do. However it always comes down to a cost benefit analysis. Does a $2000 anvil afford you the benefit to speed production to be worth the cost. For someone just getting into it, especially a kids with little money and working at a fast food place, buying new is not an option. Now if it can make them money on the relative short term to pay back their investment so they can grow in other areas it is worth it, which for most will not be the case. I personally do not look at lifetime returns as it is not profitable, but that is just my perspective as a business owner. Maybe I should get a foundry to cast anvils for me so that I can finish them in my machine shop and make some serious profit, because I know how little we pay for large castings for other parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc1 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Sure, and that takes the debate into hobby versus business. Why would someone want to start blacksmithing? Most folks answer will sadly be to make knifes. Can you make money making knifes? Probably, but you need to be real good at it. And from what I see and hear, most blacksmith shops don't make any money, they cost money. A relative of mine has the hobby of building hot rods. Spends tens of thousands of dollars to butcher a perfectly good vintage car and turn it into a monstrosity. His hobby his money, but he does not complain about the cost of compressors, or welders, or injection kits or alloy wheels or metallic paint ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 There are always anvils listed on EBAY and CL and other sites daily. Anyone in a remote area can always buy and either have it shipped or go and get it. I never understand why people complain they cannot find an anvil. Look at it as an investment or a long time rental payment....use it for a few years or decades, then sell it for what or more than you paid for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I probably ought to talk with SOFA about a "Getting Started" display of improvised anvils and forges at Quad-State some year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greebe Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 That would be cool, and probably help some people get some ideas on how to find something to get started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 15 hours ago, Greebe said: We just need a prominent figure in the community to say that a large round hardened steel shaft is better then an anvil. Paging Hofi, Brazeal. Brian Brazeal has been using an on-edge slab of mild steel with built-in fullers for years. Ditto the basic striking anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exo313 Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 His anvil is so popular I ran across a semi local (to me) guy making Brazeal anvil knockoffs, in addition to offering "anvil restoration" services. I asked about his process. Apparently it's a secret... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilwaukeeJon Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 On 3/4/2018 at 9:38 PM, ThomasPowers said: So the problem still is not the high price of London Pattern anvils; but rather that folks think they need one to start. How do we address that! Back 20 or so years ago one of the SOFA smiths used to demo at meetings using a section of shaft from a large item. It was around 8" in diameter? and 6 inches thick and his stand would hold it flat or on edge. SOFA has a more than enough anvils to use but he did it to show folks they didn't need the LPA! Honest Bob Cruickshank Hope we're both around at Quad-State this year. Well stated, Thomas. One can find many cheaper but equally effective alternatives. Getting started doesn’t require a vintage anvil. For me, however, getting a great old anvil was a huge inspiration. It gave me a sense of connection to the historical legacy of working iron. The anvil inspired me to learn more about the trade and the traditional blacksmithing tools; it peaked my curiosity. Was it essential? No. Was it beneficial for my learning? I feel that it was. Great old tools that still do their task have amazing Mojo and you can’t manufacture that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.