Civil War era blacksmith wagon

[lcb]

Burrel,

Your picture may or may not show a metal bracket, it's too poorly lit and blurry to tell.  Why do you call it a 'blackSmith' picture?  Then you say that you say that you believe the south was using it as a base to 'reload troops with supplies and guns'.  What lead you to that hypothesis?  Is there something you know about the site that you haven't told us?  How do you think a metal bracket can make lead musket balls or reload shells?  What I'm getting at is that what you have described could be many things, but you are saying that it has something to do with blacksmithing when I believe that most of us don't see any evlidence for anything but a dark picture.  JHCC has asked similar questions.  Do you have answers for us?

      And if it is a sinkhole and it just collapsed, should you be digging into the "cave" area?  Be careful.

[David Einhorn]

Antique Ordnance Publishers publishes copies of the period U.S. Army drawings for use by factories in manufacturing equipment for field artillery use. 

http://gunneyg.info/html/AOPCatalog.htm

 

[Burrel]

 

is this in a mine shaft?

I don't think it is a mine.  More of a cave i think.  The front entry of the cave.  I believe it was being used to forge some type of metal and storage of supplies.  This is the only picture i have.  Because when i went back to the spot the hole had caved in.  i have been digging for months to get back in.  No one but one other person knows and i have been working only with that other person.  It would be bad if people knew the location and news got out,  i would have people every.where.  Once I get back in I will take lots of pictures and then go from there.  I have a feeling this is going to be a major find.  If you zoom in on the rock, you will see some type of tool mounted in the rock.  I think it is some type of mould or casting for some type of metal. There is carving outside the cave on alot of trees.  I believe you can also see a canon in the picture.

This site is the only site i told my story, because of this site dealing with black smith and forges.  Thanks for any help.  Burrel

[Burrel]

Thank you so much for your input.  I don't think it was a farmer or land owner that was using the cave.  The place  is way off the trail and no one goes back their.  I wanted to contact the UK  archaeologist department, but my wife wants to wait until we get into the cave and I think she is right.  She and i are worried the governnent may take it.   You see the hole was only big enough to get my camera in to take a picture. It was not until I got back home and saw the picture that I saw what was in the cave.  I don't think anyone has been in that cave in over 150 years.  There is a marking on an old  tree by the cave that has 1859 carved on it.  If you look left and up a little of the rock, is that a brass canon.  If you look straight down on the rock, is that a canon ball?  Maybe the cave was sealed by a canon blast over 150 years ago.  The main thing is what is that metal thing mounted in the rock.  The shaving look like lead, but again i was not able to get in the cave, just my camera.  Thanks for any help.  Burrel

 

As I heard an archaeologist say once, we have to be very careful about distinguishing between the story we want to be true and the story that the evidence tells us. All we have for evidence right now is a blurry photo and your recollection of what you saw. If you were to dig in the hole and find (for example) parts of weapons and other military supplies marked "CSA" or that were known to have been used exclusively by the Confederacy and if you were also able to find some documentary evidence of Civil War activity in your area (which we still don't know, because you still haven't put your location in your profile settings), that would be, as they say, diagnostic. Is there a college with an archaeology program near where you are? You might be able to talk a professor into doing a proper excavation as a student project.

 

[David Einhorn]

Here is my Civil War Traveling Forge.... reproduced using a copy of the diagrams provided to factories by the U.S. Army during the 1860s, and also using information from period Ordnance Manuals. The wagon vise and anvil are correct to period specifications and possibly from that period. The cast iron fireback and the cast steel lunette were purchased from Museum Collectors Specialties who made those parts according to 1860s Army specifications. I even built the wheels, and the tools to make the wheels, myself. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Be carful, a cason and shoring is in order, having it cave in on you would make you an archilogical find in the future. You may also want to review your countries laws concerning such archilogical finds. some contries can get snarky about it. Tho some of us would like a first hand report of the iron work in your local prison, you may not wish to be the one giving it. That said, I have no plan to rat you out.  

As to lead, iron and stone. If I was affixing an iron fixture to a cave wall 150 years  ago, drilling a hole, and inserting or poring led into the hole with the iron fixture would be how I would do it. We still use lead anchors today. 

 

[JHCC]

David Einhorn:   is the anvil stand period-correct? Was there a military spec for anvil stands as well as for forges?

[David Einhorn]

No there were no military specs for anvil stands.  The used whatever was on hand.  I spent an average of two hours a day, for four years building the forge, wheels and tools to build the forge and wheels, and I lost track of how many thousands of dollars I spent on it.  The anvil stand is wood, and all that I as an old man can move with difficulty.  

[Marc1]

Nice work on that wagon. Do you have a pic of the forge?

Paint the anvil stand and the wagon prop the same colour as the wagon to avoid questions about them. 

[JHCC]

On 9/20/2017 at 4:30 PM, David Einhorn said:

No there were no military specs for anvil stands.  The used whatever was on hand.  

Makes sense.

On 9/20/2017 at 4:37 PM, Marc1 said:

Paint the anvil stand and the wagon prop the same colour as the wagon to avoid questions about them. 

Good idea!

[WoodnMetalGuy]

 

No there were no military specs for anvil stands.  The used whatever was on hand.  I spent an average of two hours a day, for four years building the forge, wheels and tools to build the forge and wheels, and I lost track of how many thousands of dollars I spent on it.  The anvil stand is wood, and all that I as an old man can move with difficulty.  

That's the same type of anvil stand that came under my Fisher anvil when I bought that.  Seems to work fine, and easy to add or remove layers to adjust the height.  -- Dave

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Dave,

         You are indeed a craftsman... Absolutely beautiful.. Love the Hofi hammer.. 

         Forge on and make beautiful things 

Jim

[David Einhorn]

 

Nice work on that wagon. Do you have a pic of the forge?

Paint the anvil stand and the wagon prop the same colour as the wagon to avoid questions about them. 

This is the forge from the other side. You can see the fireplace and the fireback.   .... Doesn't really matter what I paint or otherwise, some people will always find something to complain about.   The people who never have a complaint tend to be those who either have tried to build one, or have succeeded in building one...... partly because in looking at the attempts by other people to build one, so far my forge seems by far to be the most accurate.  My goal was to construct it so that a smith from the 1860s Army, when walking by, would not do a double-take. When before the public, I wrap a tent half around the prop, and other canvas over stuff on the ground,  so that it is not seen. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

OD green? Surprised. 

[Daswulf]

Beautiful chaftsmanship indeed. 

I was a little surprised at the green but it fits well and it is a magnificent build. 

[David Einhorn]

 

OD green? Surprised. 

The color is correct.  I found the guy that helped the Park Service with mixing period chemicals according to the 1860s official U.S. Army Ordnance Manuals.... had him mix me a batch, and provide me with a copy of the mixing machine instructions.  Took a sample to Lowes and got mixing machine instructions for their mixer also.  Details are included in my book.  

[Mtnstream]

Beautiful work on the forge!!

[Marc1]

On 9/20/2017 at 9:05 PM, David Einhorn said:

This is the forge from the other side. You can see the fireplace and the fireback.  

Ha ha, so true but not important. Take it with a pinch of salt.

Very good job indeed. Those wheels must have been a lot of work

[JHCC]

 

The color is correct.  I found the guy that helped the Park Service with mixing period chemicals according to the 1860s official U.S. Army Ordnance Manuals.... had him mix me a batch, and provide me with a copy of the mixing machine instructions.  Took a sample to Lowes and got mixing machine instructions for their mixer also.  Details are included in my book.  

That is fascinating. 

Please don't take my  question about the anvil stand as criticism, by the way. Given how much time and effort you've obviously put into doing your research, I was just a little surprised to see what I thought was a modern stand, and so I thought that maybe this was a period-correct type that I wasn't previously aware of.

[ThomasPowers]

There is another school of thought that you want items that are not correct to the period marked in some way so people are not misled into thinking that they are.

Like the Dwarves in Discworld; 3 dwarves, 5 opinions!

And if you are interested in the forge and period you owe it to your self to buy a copy of Dave's book. Besides the documented information on building the forge&cart it also discusses the sort of stuff that sells are ACW reenactments and how to make it! (Yes I have a copy and read it cover to cover. Even though I am more interested in the Civil War between Stephan and Matilda...)

[WoodnMetalGuy]

 

Like the Dwarves in Discworld; 3 dwarves, 5 opinions!

I love the Terry Pratchett books!

[ThomasPowers]

Well I thought of using a reference to Kipling: "There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And every single one of them is right!"

Bought two more Pratchett's in hardback when they had a 50 cent hardback sale at the "friends of the library" store. (all they had that I didn't already have in hardback---I then pass the paperbacks ones along to others.) I hope to keep reading them until I meet HE WHO SPEAKS ALL IN CAPITALS...

[the iron dwarf]

I hope it is a long time before you meet him Thomas

yes at least 5 opinions

I am glad to see Terrys work is appreciated, how many have read all the books including books connected with DW?

look out for 'the arts of falconrie and hawking'

[Charles R. Stevens]

I had faith in your authenticity, David. I was just surprised that the US army had started painting equipment OD green that early. Especially as they made the troops stand out, I guess we know their priorities. 

I have seen pictures of Mexican/American war smiths using a nail keg or tunne for an anvil stand. I assume the filled it with sand. 

[David Einhorn]

This photo (camera flash) tends to lighten the colors, but you can see that there is a difference between what the U.S. Army in their 1860s Ordnance Manuals called "Liquid Olive" green and more modern greens.  If you look on historically oriented forums you will find discussion(s) of how U.S. Army green has changed from the War Between the States, to WWI, and WWII, etc.  Differences more noticeable side by side so as to be compared.   Yes, during the War Between the States (WBTS) blacksmiths used what was on hand, often a discarded barrel or box.  I don't claim absolute authenticity. For example, I would likely have to build at least 200 No.1 Artillery wheels to develop the skills and accuracy, to make a wheel that was 100 percent authentic.  I also used two-inch copper pipe for the tube from the bellows to the fireback,  if anyone would like to cast the pipes, and connector, in brass and donate them to my forge, I would be happy to accept them, as that is beyond my finances, and skill level.  See authentic Army 1860s pipe diagram below.  :-)  .... I would also accept a donation of the correct sized and period correct powder keg or barrel to rest the anvil on. I would also accept the donation of a period correct Limber-for-field artillery use (and Limber box) to *safely* rest the lunette on instead of the incorrect prop.   :-)