chatter

[TJ Smith]

In Have a small Grizzly mill. It does fine with small end mills in brass but tends to chatter with anything close to 1/4 inch. Anybody got some hint or tweaks to tune it up and stop the chatter?

Tj Smith

Knifemaker

[Frosty]

Yeah. Buy a better mill and take a class or two.

Did you sharpen your cutters for steel. There is a significant difference in the edge angles for cutting copper alloys as compared to steel.

End mills are notorious for chattering if you aren't  using it correctly. How deep are the cuts? How fast are you feeding it and how fast is the cutter turning? Why are you using a mill?

Your question is so general it's unanswerable say I asked, "My car is running rough, what's wrong?"

Frosty The Lucky.

[Kozzy]

#1 is quality endmills designed for the material you are cutting.  They are not cheap but are worth the cost.  The offerings from Grizzly are variable and tend to run toward the low end of quality (although many of their router bits are quite good).

Calculate correct feeds/speeds and try to follow that...even if you have to "time" the speed as you are turning the feed-handles by counting in your head..."One mississippi..2 mississippi" until you get a feel for it.

Those small mills and mill/drills are not rigid enough to do more than very light cuts in steel.  AL not so bad but steel will tend to chatter easily.  Climb milling is probably not going to happen without getting a quite picky with the set-up and operation.  Coolant/lube can make a huge difference in many situations.

As Frosty said, there is not enough info provided to say much more than those generics.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Chattering means that you need to either slow the RPMs down, or increase the feed rate. Chatter is caused by not having a heavy enough chip load on the cutter. Things that can affect the cutter are a loose setup, dull cutters, improper cutters, and loose machine ways. 

[TJ Smith]

On 6/22/2017 at 3:35 PM, Frosty said:

Yeah. Buy a better mill and take a class or two.

Did you sharpen your cutters for steel. There is a significant difference in the edge angles for cutting copper alloys as compared to steel.

End mills are notorious for chattering if you aren't  using it correctly. How deep are the cuts? How fast are you feeding it and how fast is the cutter turning? Why are you using a mill?

Your question is so general it's unanswerable say I asked, "My car is running rough, what's wrong?"

Frosty The Lucky.

Frosty dumbest answers I have ever got.

Buy a new mill. DUH not gonna happen.

Didn't know I had to sharpen end mills for steel. Could have suggested that.

Why am I using a mill. TO make a guard slot. DUH.

If you can't give a decent answer xxxx up.Thanks Kozzy and gun doc for some answers that help.

I make knives.

Thank you TJ Smith

Thanks

[Anachronist58]

46 minutes ago, TJ Smith said:

Frosty dumbest answers I have ever got.

Mr Smith, I am sure there are other forums that would better suit your inquiries, no less your demeanor.

Perhaps you are having a bad day. If not, a good way to enhance your self control would be to use the mute feature. Mute Frosty's posts, and preclude the risk of horribly insulting someone you don't know on an international venue.

Since I am only three-fifths as knowledgeable as Frosty, Please put me on your mute list as well.

Get well soon,

Robert Taylor

[Frosty]

Not worth responding.

I'll not bother you further. 

[the iron dwarf]

I would normally consider end mills and slot drills as consumables and as they are only a few $ ( or here a few pounds ) am happy to buy a replacement when needed.

yes there are different cutting angles for different materials.

worn spindle bearings, incorrect feed and speed, coolant, loose slideways and much more can cause chatter.

and TJ Smith, if you know it all why bother asking for help

[Steve Sells]

8 hours ago, TJ Smith said:

Frosty dumbest answers I have ever got.

with this attitude dont expect any more from, anyone.

Buy a new mill. DUH not gonna happen.

Didn't know I had to sharpen end mills for steel. Could have suggested that.

He asked and explained that they differ,

Why am I using a mill. TO make a guard slot. DUH.

'Duh' is just plane rude

If you can't give a decent answer xxxx up.Thanks Kozzy and gun doc for some answers that help.

now ya really blew it

I make knives.

Thank you TJ Smith

Thanks

 

[CMS3900]

This guy asked a simple question and the first response he got was snarky and rude.

Then when he responds to it, upset at the way his post was responded to, he's told his attitude's the one that's wrong.

Then a moderator reinforces the behavior and continues to be rude.  This happens more often than I care to see on this forum, and I have met several people who have left the forum, or were banned because of peoples attitudes. No one forces anyone to post in a thread, yet some here feel compelled to throw their 2c. in even if its just rude as xxxx, or counter productive to the conversation. That's now how the blacksmith community in my area works. That's not how I thought it was supposed to work here. We want people to get into the craft, for what ever reason, and encourage their passion within the bounds of their means and safety.  We don't tell them to throw their tools out and buy something else. or make 5000 S hooks before you even look at making a knife shaped object.

To add to what Kozzy and BIGGUN said  @TJ Smith as a general rule of thumb your depth of cut should not exceed 1/2 the diameter of the end mill. Also, the direction of cut makes a difference with chatter. Try making sure your conventional milling as shown here. Your end mills matter too, but any two or four flute HSS, or high speed steel, end mill on a machine like that in brass should work. If your plunging the end mill make sure it's center cutting. Speed and feed guidelines go out the window because their based on a machine with a assumed weight and rigidity, and the Grizzly isn't anywhere near what the calculations were based off of. Work by feel with sharp cutters and good technique, take light cuts and learn the machine is my best advice.

The Grizzly mills are popular and a lot of info is out there on how to tune them up.  If you have a square column  one like the G0762 it is a whole lot better than the round column.  

 

Hope that helped TJ

[Steve Sells]

Where was I rude?  Frosty may have pushed it by suggesting his equipment is part of the problem, as in 'you get what you pay for' but brand loyalty aside If you want to pick a fight you will lose. Mr Smith f bomb language could have resulted in a ban by itself.  I was not rude or heavy handed,

[Glenn]

This thread was locked while we formulated a response.

 

CMS This guy asked a simple question and the first response he got was snarky and rude.
 

Original post TJ Smith
Have a small Grizzly mill. It does fine with small end mills in brass but tends to chatter with anything close to 1/4 inch. Anybody got some hint or tweaks to tune it up and stop the chatter?

First response
Yeah. Buy a better mill and take a class or two.
Did you sharpen your cutters for steel. There is a significant difference in the edge angles for cutting copper alloys as compared to steel.
End mills are notorious for chattering if you aren't  using it correctly. How deep are the cuts? How fast are you feeding it and how fast is the cutter turning? Why are you using a mill?
Your question is so general it's unanswerable say I asked, "My car is running rough, what's wrong?"

Second response
#1 is quality end mills designed for the material you are cutting.  They are not cheap but are worth the cost.  The offerings from Grizzly are variable and tend to run toward the low end of quality (although many of their router bits are quite good).
Calculate correct feeds/speeds and try to follow that...even if you have to "time" the speed as you are turning the feed-handles by counting in your head..."One Mississippi..2 Mississippi" until you get a feel for it.
Those small mills and mill/drills are not rigid enough to do more than very light cuts in steel.  AL not so bad but steel will tend to chatter easily.  Climb milling is probably not going to happen without getting a quite picky with the set-up and operation.  Coolant/lube can make a huge difference in many situations.
As Frosty said, there is not enough info provided to say much more than those generics.

 

CMS Then when he responds to it, upset at the way his post was responded to, he's told his attitude's the one that's wrong.

TJ Smith second post and reply
Frosty dumbest answers I have ever got.
Buy a new mill. DUH not gonna happen.
Didn't know I had to sharpen end mills for steel. Could have suggested that.
Why am I using a mill. TO make a guard slot. DUH.
If you can't give a decent answer xxxx up.Thanks Kozzy and gun doc for some answers that help.

Next response
I would normally consider end mills and slot drills as consumables and as they are only a few $ ( or here a few pounds ) am happy to buy a replacement when needed.
yes there are different cutting angles for different materials.
worn spindle bearings, incorrect feed and speed, coolant, loose slide ways and much more can cause chatter.
and TJ Smith, if you know it all why bother asking for help

————————————
Let us review
TJ Smith   Have a small Grizzly mill. It does fine with small end mills in brass but tends to chatter with anything close to 1/4 inch. Anybody got some hint or tweaks to tune it up and stop the chatter?

4 posts with suggestions, hints, or tweeks.  TJ Smith seems to take objection to “Buy a better mill and take a class or two” and replies “Frosty dumbest answers I have ever got. Buy a new mill. DUH not gonna happen."

When ask “Did you sharpen your cutters for steel?”   TJ Smith's reply was  “Didn't know I had to sharpen end mills for steel.”
——————————————

CMS Then when he responds to it, upset at the way his post was responded to, he's told his attitude's the one that's wrong.

Sorry I can not find that sentence in order to quote it. Closest I can come is “Mr Smith, I am sure there are other forums that would better suit your inquiries, no less your demeanor. “ Milling forums, or machining forums would indeed have more information than a blacksmithing forum on the operation of a mill. As to his demeanor, you can decide after you read the entire thread.
 

CMS Then a moderator reinforces the behavior and continues to be rude.  This happens more often than I care to see on this forum,

The Moderator posted
TJ Smith Frosty dumbest answers I have ever got.
Mod with this attitude don't expect any more from, anyone.

TJ Smith Why am I using a mill. TO make a guard slot. DUH.
Mod 'Duh' is just plane rude

 

TJ Smith If you can't give a decent answer xxxx up.
Mod now ya really blew it  Admin note: Inappropriate language is not allowed on the site, and was X'ed out
——————————

CMS I have met several people who have left the forum, or were banned because of peoples attitudes.

No one has been banned because of someone elses attitude. People do get banned for not following the site rules, cussing, personal attacks, etc, but only after being warned.

 

CMS No one forces anyone to post in a thread, yet some here feel compelled to throw their 2c. in even if its just rude as xxxx, or counter productive to the conversation. That's now how the blacksmith community in my area works. That's not how I thought it was supposed to work here.

We encourage discussions, always have, but they must be kept civil, G rated, use appropriate language for a family forum, and NOT be a personal attack against others.  This does not have anything to do with blacksmithing. It does however make the site a polite environment where ladies, gentlemen, and children can gather to learn about the craft.

 

CMS We want people to get into the craft, for what ever reason, and encourage their passion within the bounds of their means and safety.  We don't tell them to throw their tools out and buy something else. or make 5000 S hooks before you even look at making a knife shaped object.

IFI encourages people to enjoy the craft safely, to learn, and to take that knowledge to the forge. They are encourages to ask questions. It is sometimes suggested they read what has been already been posted on the subject in the forum.  This is in response to the many times the same question that has been ask before by others.

This is in reference to electrically driven tools, line belt tools, etc. not the hand tools or tooling a beginning blacksmith would be using. If people have tools with little or no tolerances, it will be extremely difficult to produce a quality product. If they were skilled in the use of a loose or no tolerance machines, they may be able to overcome some of the limitations. For instance anyone can buy a power hammer, several pounds to several CWT in size. They MUST learn how to use the hammer safely, how to maintain the hammer, and learn how to keep it in running order.

CMS As to making 5000 S hooks before you even look at making a knife shaped object,

Can your first project be a knife, certainly. We suggested that you learn hammer control, fire control, and how the metal moves, read basic blacksmithing or metal working, then make your knife or what ever project you want to make. Knowing basic blacksmithing makes the job easier, faster, and safer.

 

CMS thank you for your concerns. I hope this has answered your question.

 

[Marc1]

Glenn ... I admire you patience in the analysis of the above exchange, but I am afraid there is only one conclusion from it.

The first sentence in the first reply was out of line and rude. The rest is only a consequence of that single sentence.

A provocative reply is no excuse for poor behaviour, agreed. But a provocative reply uncalled for from a long standing member has also no excuse.

Considering this is not the first time I see this happening and considering the little time I spend here, the chances of me seeing this happening more than once should be zero.

 I believe that those that have experience and knowledge to share, and are generous enough to answer, take into consideration in their replies that

1) We do not know the poster and assumptions are the mother of all stuff ups.

2) Courtesy does not cost much and is not a sign of weakness.

Nuff said.

M

[TJ Smith]

Thanks CMS for a decent reply to my question.

More time was spent on my having a bad attitude then answering my question.

I have been making knives since 1992,have made 3 forges, 3 presses,1 heat treat oven, and several other time saving devices.

Thought maybe someone on a thread labeled  mills and such might not mind passing on a little info.

I am not a blacksmith,but have admired those who are.

I will aploigze for bothering those who are to busy to answer general question and will go to one of the other forums.

Thank you

TJ Smith

 

[Glenn]

I have been doing some research in order to better understand the question that was ask, the answers provided, and in order to make a better informed response.

People told me, in order to specifically address any issues, the original question did not have enough details about the process and equipment being used, in order to specifically address any issues. Therefore the question could only be answered in general terms.

The operator of the mill is what makes the mill work. If the operator does not know which cutting tool to use for which metal, the suggested speed, feed rate, etc. for that metal, then the mill will not preform at an optimum level.  A better quality mill can be more forgiving because it is heavier, more robust, built to closer tolerances, etc. but it is still the operator that makes the mill work.

The way to gain knowledge of a mills operation, is to learn the details of milling. You can learn by taking classes, or working under someones direction that is knowledgeable in that area. Either way it is not a one hour program.

Frosty's comment "Buy a better mill and take a class or two." could have been worded differently, but is the same information that the people in my research told me. I was also told the information provided was good, but without specific knowledge of the process, specific answers could not be provided.

 

Another comment "I am sure there are other forums that would better suit your inquiries" was a valid comment. You ask a milling question on a blacksmithing forum, and got good general milling information replies. If you had ask the same question on a milling forum, you would expect to get milling related replies. They would have ask for many of the details of the operation before providing specific answers.

Go to the same milling forum and ask a blacksmithing question such as how to properly tune a T burner for a gas forge, you might find someone who could provide some general answers. Nothing wrong with either forum or either answer, Both are forums that specialize in their subject. 

Please go back and provide us specific details about your process, such as the make and model of the Grizzley mill, the details of the end mill being used, such as manufacturer, what metal it was designed to cut, design cut rate, designed cut depth, etc. We will need to know what alloy metal your are cutting, the feed rate, speed, cutting depth that you are using in your milling process. These are the same details a milling forum will need to specifically answer your questions.

[Kozzy]

I would add that the lesser the mill, the greater the operator skill needed to make that mill produce.  It's a matter of learning the foibles of your own mill and becoming skilled at what does and doesn't produce good results.  That takes more than just generic milling answers--it's about practice, experimenting, and tweaking what you do on that specific machine.

This same thing often comes up regarding desktop CNC mills:  People can't figure out why it won't hog out huge cuts without barking like that 8000 pound mill on youtube only scaled.  You actually have to be a better operator to make those produce than you would on a big mill.  That's not saying you need more overall machining knowledge and skills, just more of a "relationship" with your particular mill so you know where it likes to be stroked and where it hates to be poked.