Mousehole 146 lb find

[G-ManBart]

I have a friend who's a local picker and he called me up about an anvil yesterday, then sent me a couple of pictures.  He normally finds vises for me, but I told him to keep an eye out for any anvils. 

It's got some sway, some dents, some edge damage, but still has good rebound and ring.  Still, I think the edges should dress up pretty well, and the chips look worse from the side than the top.  I'm far from an expert, but thought that a light professional grind should clean up the face to make it a good user, and I know a couple of folks looking for their first anvil, so I'm going to give them a call.

As best I can tell, the markings are M&H, Armitage, Mousehole, Forge, 1.1.6, and 146lbs all on separate lines.  I need to clean it up and try some powder to get a better look at the markings.  A friend told me he believes the markings are likely 1870s give or take...pretty cool it was kicking around Detroit!

 

 

 

 

[Glenn]

That anvil is close to 150 years old. A light professional grind should clean up the face and could destroy the anvil. If you remove the patina, you will never be able to get it replaced in your lifetime.

ONLY use hot iron to clean up the face. A few hours getting to know each other and the face will shine.

There are many opinions on the site about how to "clean up" an anvil.  You can always modify the anvil later so wait a year before you do anything. You may want to do a little reading before you do something that can not be undone.

 

If you want to remove the rest, look up electrolysis on the forum. It removes the rest and not the metal.

 

[Mark Ling]

28 minutes ago, G-ManBart said:

I'm far from an expert, but thought that a light professional grind should clean up the face to make it a good user

Nothing professional about grinding an anvil. It takes life out of the tool, and you don't help it but actually do harm to it. A anvil with sharp 90degree edges and a perfectly flat face isn't necessary. Those edges are far from bad. I almost never use a sharp edge, and if I need one, I can use a hardy tool that has sharp edges on it, or my striking anvil, though that is lower.

Could you take a pic of the third hole closer to the step of the anvil? is it round or square, go all the way through? I'm just curiose.

good find.

                                                                                                                         Littleblacksmith

[JHCC]

I've been using a practically identical Mousehole anvil off and on (mostly off, alas) for 30 years. Really terrific  tool that you will not regret using.

(The only regret I have with mine is that I didn't know when I got it (ah, those innocent days pre-Internet) that you shouldn't grind the face, and so did do some cleanup with an angle grinder. Do not repeat my mistake, lest you suffer the same grief from the IFI curmudgeons!)

[G-ManBart]

27 minutes ago, Glenn said:

That anvil is close to 150 years old. A light professional grind should clean up the face and could destroy the anvil. If you remove the patina, you will never be able to get it replaced in your lifetime.

ONLY use hot iron to clean up the face. A few hours getting to know each other and the face will shine.

There are many opinions on the site about how to "clean up" an anvil.  You can always modify the anvil later so wait a year before you do anything. You may want to do a little reading before you do something that can not be undone.

 

If you want to remove the rest, look up electrolysis on the forum. It removes the rest and not the metal.

 

As you said, there are lots of opinions on the topic.  A local blacksmith (full-time with years of experience) told me taking a 32nd or two off the face to get rid of the dents wouldn't hurt it if done by someone who knows what they're doing....didn't seem unreasonable.

26 minutes ago, littleblacksmith said:

Nothing professional about grinding an anvil. It takes life out of the tool, and you don't help it but actually do harm to it. A anvil with sharp 90degree edges and a perfectly flat face isn't necessary. Those edges are far from bad. I almost never use a sharp edge, and if I need one, I can use a hardy tool that has sharp edges on it, or my striking anvil, though that is lower.

Could you take a pic of the third hole closer to the step of the anvil? is it round or square, go all the way through? I'm just curiose.

good find.

                                                                                                                         Littleblacksmith

I wasn't thinking it needed a perfectly flat face, but the dents are pretty much everywhere, and would seem to be enough that they could be a problem for some uses.  The edges I thought would dress up nicely, but never thought they needed to be 90*.

The hole near the step is just some kind of damage...not round, or square, and doesn't go through.  I'll try to get a picture of it.

[Mark Ling]

Ok, good to hear that, actually that's GREAT!!

Yes, lots of opinions. This is mine.

8 minutes ago, G-ManBart said:

if done by someone who knows what they're doing....

It doesn't matter who is holding the grinder, you are still doing the same thing; removing the face.

In the words of Mr. Powers;

"don't take off any more off the face than you would your own, and do your own first!"

Or something along those lines.

Now a 32nd is really not much, can be done with a wire weel removing a 32nd of the rust, or with hot steel, which ever you prefer. you could probably get by without much damage.

                                                                                                                               Littleblacksmith

[Glenn]

36 minutes ago, G-ManBart said:

taking a 32nd or two off the face to get rid of the dents wouldn't hurt it if done by someone who knows what they're doing.

Measure the depth of ALL the dents first so you KNOW what your dealing with. Two 32 nds is a 1/16 if an inch. The kid learning to run a milling machine in trade school knows what he is doing, removing metal.

Have you even used the anvil yet? Did the dents or dings made a difference in the forging? 

 

Bottom line: YOUR anvil, YOUR choice. Choose wisely.

[G-ManBart]

1 hour ago, littleblacksmith said:

Ok, good to hear that, actually that's GREAT!!

Yes, lots of opinions. This is mine.

It doesn't matter who is holding the grinder, you are still doing the same thing; removing the face.

In the words of Mr. Powers;

"don't take off any more off the face than you would your own, and do your own first!"

Or something along those lines.

Now a 32nd is really not much, can be done with a wire weel removing a 32nd of the rust, or with hot steel, which ever you prefer. you could probably get by without much damage.

                                                                                                                               Littleblacksmith

I do a fair amount of restoration work on metal and it takes a bit of effort to remove a 32nd deep scratch/nick with a flap disc on metal much softer than an anvil face, so I have a hard time imagining taking that much off an anvil with a wire wheel.   Still, I wasn't talking about an angle grinder at all, I was talking about a surface grinder, run by somebody who does repair work on anvils regularly.  I don't know much, but I know enough not to use an angle grinder on an anvil :-)

[Frosty]

A lot of long time professional smiths ruin anvils rarely their own but that happens now and then too. The only thing I'd touch with a grinder are the two sharp protruding spots on the edge. It's rusted enough electrolysis is a good bet for removing the gross rust. It's deep enough to be worth the effort. 

The face is just fine to forge on, hot steel and a hammer will go a long way towards smoothing out the dents and putting a shine on her. The torch cut in the heal and damage to the hardy is a tough one. Welding up the torch cut is more than likely to damage the heat treat in the HAZ and that's a B-A-D thing.

A flap sander is designed to FOLLOW contours NOT smooth them out and they suck for chasing scratches. Taking one to an anvil face is a BAD thing it won't solve the problems while removing years of life.

If a person actually needs a polished face to work on make a bottom tool, eg. hardy, fuller, swage, etc. 

Of course if your thing is making them LOOK the way you think they should and utility isn't important it's your anvil.

Frosty The Lucky.

[G-ManBart]

For some reason people see "grind" and think angle grinder, but I was talking about a surface grinder run by a machinist who regularly works on anvils.

I've actually had great success removing deep scratches using a flap disc followed by a unitized wheel and then a deburring wheel.  Frequently the vises I restore have an "anvil" portion that winds up with light chisel and hammer marks....unless they're very deep I'll run 60, 80, 120 grit flap discs over it, then a unitized wheel and then the deburring wheel on a grinder and it's nearly a mirror finish.

As I said in my first post, I grabbed this because a friend picked it up, and I know a couple of people looking for decent anvils....figured one of them would really appreciate it.  I think it's really cool, but my anvil budget is pretty much blown after buying a new 330lb Refflinghaus a few weeks ago.

[Frosty]

Uh huh. You really think surface grinding 0.03125" will do any good? Want to bet? I can see in the pic that face is well more than that far out of plane and a surface grinder makes planes. It will grind to the lowest point before it CAN take your 0.03125" and clean the face.

More anvils have been ruined by experienced machinists than Gen. Sherman was supposed to have.

It's your anvil, do to it what you wish. I have nothing else to say, you know too much already.

 

[brickman]

10 hours ago, G-ManBart said:

I think it's really cool, but my anvil budget is pretty much blown after buying a new 330lb Refflinghaus a few weeks ago.

tell me more about this reffflinghaus.... Thats the anvil i want to buy some day. I'm rocking an old Peter wright and Sodorfors right now 86lb and 130lb respectively. 

[G-ManBart]

11 hours ago, Frosty said:

Uh huh. You really think surface grinding 0.03125" will do any good? Want to bet? I can see in the pic that face is well more than that far out of plane and a surface grinder makes planes. It will grind to the lowest point before it CAN take your 0.03125" and clean the face.

More anvils have been ruined by experienced machinists than Gen. Sherman was supposed to have.

It's your anvil, do to it what you wish. I have nothing else to say, you know too much already.

 

I'm not sure why you'd say I "know too much" since I wasn't arguing, just pointing out I wasn't talking about an angle grinder like several people mentioned.  It's possible to surface grind on a radius and/or follow a contour so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to follow the contour of the face and take off just a small amount, but everybody can decide that for themselves.

As I've said, I'm not planning to keep this anvil...just grabbed it because a friend found it at a reasonable price.  I thought folks here might find it interesting....I wish I hadn't posted anything at all now.

[G-ManBart]

1 hour ago, brickman said:

tell me more about this reffflinghaus.... Thats the anvil i want to buy some day. I'm rocking an old Peter wright and Sodorfors right now 86lb and 130lb respectively. 

I just picked it up recently and still need a few pieces of steel for the stand I'm going to fabricate for it, so I haven't used it at all.  I'm a newbie so my plan was to work on my technique with my 150lb Fisher (it's got some damage) before I start using the Refflinghaus.  

I'm sure someone will chastise me for buying a big, new, expensive anvil since I don't know anything....but hey, it's got amazing rebound, and looks cool, so I'll survive.

[ThomasPowers]

You are right a surface grinder is different than an angle grinder and generally does MUCH MORE DAMAGE TO AN ANVIL!

Old anvils often have some sway to the face, this doesn't hurt their usability and in face for something like bladesmithing it can be a positive feature for straightening!  A surface grinder can't touch the face in the sway without grinding down the high ends to match.

Old anvils often are not parallel face to base and I have personally seen several where they wanted to clean up the face and removed the entire hardened faceplate at one end or the other leaving just the soft wrought iron body---often in the place you need the face the most!. (If an anvil face absolutely must be machined the method is to flip it over and true the base to the face and then flip it back and lightly kiss the face---extra work and extra cost; but if a machinist doesn't suggest doing it this way---grab your anvil and RUN they don't know what they are doing no matter what they have told you!)

[brickman]

15 minutes ago, G-ManBart said:

I just picked it up recently and still need a few pieces of steel for the stand I'm going to fabricate for it, so I haven't used it at all.  

That thing is gorgeous.. Someday ill have one too :P. I'm waiting until i'm good enough to make it matter, so a ways off still i imagine :P.

[Glenn]

The idea of "cleaning up an anvil" is a sensitive topic, as in the past there have been several anvils milled to flat by removing the anvil face. All manner of machines have been suggested, or have been used, ALL of which remove metal at an alarming rate.  Anvils have had the edges welded and brought back to 90 degrees with no regard to how it should be done properly, or the temper of the anvil face. We got caught up in trying to slow you down before damage was done to a 150 year old anvil that could not be replaced or repaired. A difference in definitions of the tools used did not help.

Let is start over. We should start with the least damaging methods first. Then define the tools being suggested or used, how they are used, and what they will accomplish.

 

If a separate thread, please describe your method of restoration work. If they are available, before and after photos would be nice. This is an area we could use for many projects.

21 hours ago, G-ManBart said:

I do a fair amount of restoration work on metal. I've actually had great success removing deep scratches using a flap disc followed by a unitized wheel and then a deburring wheel.  Frequently the vises I restore have an "anvil" portion that winds up with light chisel and hammer marks....unless they're very deep I'll run 60, 80, 120 grit flap discs over it, then a unitized wheel and then the deburring wheel on a grinder and it's nearly a mirror finish.

 

[ThomasPowers]

I have drawfiled an old stake anvil before to clean it up a bit.  Strong encouragement to not take off too much if you are filing it!

Most of my anvils get a good wire wheeling and then I let hot steel put the polish on it---works a treat! My usual example is: I have a 134 HB anvil that spent 50 years in an unheated shed in a swampy area near a creek in Ohio. When I got it it had fine condensation rust pitting over the entire face. I wire brushed off the loose rust and put it in the shop; now 15+ years later the sweet spot is shiney and smooth and you can see how the pitting used to look at the heel end. (If it was my only anvil it would have been polished out much sooner; but I try to use all my anvils on a regular basis.)

[G-ManBart]

9 hours ago, Glenn said:

The idea of "cleaning up an anvil" is a sensitive topic. 

Let is start over.

Fair enough.  I'm a fan of leaving vintage items intact as much as possible, and I certainly wouldn't want to see anything bad happen to a piece of history like this anvil.  

Most of the restoration work I do is on vintage bench vises, but I find it applies to many other things as well.  I'll start a thread on that soon....I have much of it already documented on my website so folks can do their own, and only need to add some pictures of the processes to go along with the before and after pics I've posted (the site is very much a work in progress).

Back to this anvil, I took a straight edge to it tonight and measured the sway since it seemed like a smart idea to get a baseline before really going any farther into discussing options.  I used a welding magnet to hold the square in place right down the centerline of the face, and then measured using a 1/32nd scale from a thread pitch gauge (didn't have a machinist rule with me).  The max appears to be more than 1/32nd, but less than a 1/16th, so I'd say 3/64ths give or take.  I'm not sure how well the pictures will show, but it was less than I expected.  Here's what I found:

 

 

[Lionel h]

Leave it alone!!! Use it in good health,make nice things with it .

[arkie]

That sway is nothing....it can actually aid in straightenlng long pieces of work.  Give it a try, give it a chance.

[ThomasPowers]

What Arkie said, very handy in bladesmithing to have a swale like that!

Note if the concept that some things work as well or better with noticeable wear in them is abhorrent to your psyche; you may want to look into Machining as a hobby  as there you get kudo's for precision and accuracy.  I do blacksmithing for fun and the satisfaction it gives me; if it doesn't work for you do something else!  Far better to be a happy baker/machinist/cheesemaker/woodworker/etc  than an unhappy smith!

[Kevin A King]

It is said several times above - This is your anvil and you can do as you wish.  

I will however share my story.  The anvil below was my first real Anvil - an 84 lb hay budden.  It's a different story, but I have almost no money in this anvil.  Immediately after acquiring this little hay budden I became fixated on anvil restoration.  I researched it, dug, searched, studied and learned everything I could on anvil restoration.  I bought $80.00 worth of fancy, high dollar welding rod and test welded on high carbon steel to get everything "JUST RIGHT!"   Unfortunately I do not have a BEFORE picture of this anvil b/c I did not have sense enough to take one.  The edges were quite bad and rolled over, there were gouge marks in the face and several corners were chipped.  The anvil had no real good use-able edges.  I was convinced it needed repairing!   I ground the edges, hard surface welded them and brought the anvil to 90 degree edges all around.  I WAS PROUD of my accomplishment and felt quite accomplished.   I had a use-able hay budden anvil for FORGING it was Perfect!  

Since I finished repairing this anvil I have learned more about forging, have learned more about anvils and have learned more about collector value.   I have also acquired a larger shop anvil so this little hay budden only gets used for leather riveting.  

I REGRET the repair, I regret the work I did to this anvil and I wish I could take it back!  The anvil would be worth more to someone (A collector perhaps) as an old, rounded edge hay budden than in its current state of "perfection".

I wish you all the best in your repair.  If I had a DO OVER - I would NOT DO THE REPAIR my little hay budden below.  

[ThomasPowers]

Repaired anvils generally sell for less to users as well as you really can't tell if the person who repaired it did it correctly or not and generally you have only the seller's word and many a time they don't even know what the correct method of repair actually involves...However if you are never going to sell it and it's for personal use do you really care about how it affects it's resale value?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I have yet to see a surface grinder that follows a contour. I have a surface grinder, and have run others in the machine shops I worked at. The wheel sits at a pre-determined height, and the part reciprocates back and forth under it. The table is then moved forwards or backwards to grind the entire face being done. Surface grinders are used to make items dead flat. You can radius the wheel for grinding a straight radius. 

That anvils surface looks fine to use. I would only flap disc the edges to a smooth radius to help prevent more chipping.