Blower forge questions

[Frosty]

Guys, I've played the "Why? Why? Why?" game with this kid too long already. If he were actually going to DO something he would've but he seems more interested in getting our attention.

Just consider the most recent whopper. He took a lesson from a bladesmith who told him a blown forge will bring a damascus billet to welding heat 3x faster than a NA burner. Any fire that brings a billet to welding temp 3x faster is a BAD forge for welding, the outside of the billet would be running on the forge floor showering sparks before the center was even near welding temp.

If he were pestering us at the drill rig I'd send him to town to talk to Kelly Bar or Stan Pipe, an A&P mechanic could send him for a gallon of Prop wash. Probably gofer wrenches if it's safe. I wouldn't mind having him around in person, I could LOOK at him if he got out of line.

I don't think he's a bad kid, probably a lot like me when I was his age but doubt he's going to build anything. Give him a few years and maybe he'll make me eat my words. I hope so, I like seeing successes.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Frosty would that be a right handed or left handed gofer wrench and do NOT confuse it with a gopher winch!

[Michael Cochran]

Who is JPH? He is a man that has more bladesmithing talent in his little toe than several of us combined. No offense meant towards anyone, we have many fine Bladesmiths here that I envy their talent. But let's face reality, if there ever was a master bladesmith I believe JPH would probably be the guy holding the title.

[Lou L]

Thomas and Frosty, perhaps it is generational or some personal defect of mine....but your hilariously blunt and curt response inspire me to do my homework before I ever dare ask a question here.  In a way perhaps I'm a younger, slightly,less curmudgeonly version of you.  I teach English and every year I stand before my students at the beginning of the year and tell them that all their teachers who have come before have lied to them and it is my duty to tell them the ugly truth: that there is, indeed, such a thing as a stupid question.  I go on to explain that such a question is one wherein the asker failed to try to find the answer for themselves first.

 

Even being a green at the forge it seemed odd to me that an experienced smith would be proclaiming the benefits of fast heat for forge welding.  Everything I've learned says that the steel should be allowed to soak and get even heat all the way through.

[Frosty]

12 minutes ago, Lou L said:

Thomas and Frosty, perhaps it is generational or some personal defect of mine....but your hilariously blunt and curt response inspire me to do my homework before I ever dare ask a question here.  In a way perhaps I'm a younger, slightly,less curmudgeonly version of you.  I teach English and every year I stand before my students at the beginning of the year and tell them that all their teachers who have come before have lied to them and it is my duty to tell them the ugly truth: that there is, indeed, such a thing as a stupid question.  I go on to explain that such a question is one wherein the asker failed to try to find the answer for themselves first.

 

Even being a green at the forge it seemed odd to me that an experienced smith would be proclaiming the benefits of fast heat for forge welding.  Everything I've learned says that the steel should be allowed to soak and get even heat all the way through.

As much as I loath the texting abbreviations I must, MUST I say . . . LOL! I seem to have an irresistible urge to ask stupid questions as soon as someone tells me there is no such thing. Truth is it's not even hard if you try just a little. Being a fan of "Prairie Home Companion" I'm finding it a bit of challenge to not make any cracks about English Majors. Ketchup anyone?

Thomas if you run across a gofer who can't tell a left from a wright hand wrench I'm afraid there is no choice but to send him to the video store to rewind your DVDs.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I have a terrible problem with being able to see *many* ways to interpret most questions  and would argue with Professors some time pointing out my answer was correct the way the question was written; even if it was not the one the Professor wanted. Won some, lost some.  Once I even had filled out a corner block of a crossword where all the words were correct and fit but were not the ones the author had intended, 770 Verbal on the SAT.  The Big Bang Theory has been a blessing as my wife now realizes that my quirks are part of a larger social grouping of similar people and not just me being "me".

I get tired of playing 20000 questions at times.  The asker generally has all the details to hand; but can't see how we do not.  If they had to pay me a dollar for every word I had to use to ask them for necessary details; their posts would probably be Dicksonian in length and mine much smaller as I'd be spending my time making coconut husk charcoal for my forge on my private Tropical Island...

One year I went to my Dr's office and they had a new form to fill out saying that if I did not inform the office within a day  of the appointment I would be charged a fee.  I asked and they told me that what it said was that a patient had to give them more than a day's notice.  I asked them to read what it said and not what they thought it said.  Very embarrassing as they had been using it for months and hundreds of patients had signed it...

[Grussingcustomknives]

10 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Can't search on the book names to see who wrote them?  I drop students who can't do basic work on their own---unless they are paying me for my time.

I found him... Ok ill just go 1 na burner and i can always switch it too blown. Im building a mike porter burner still figuring out the accelerater part super complicated 

[Buzzkill]

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

If he were pestering us at the drill rig I'd send him to town to talk to Kelly Bar or Stan Pipe, an A&P mechanic could send him for a gallon of Prop wash. Probably gofer wrenches if it's safe.

In the Army we always sent the new guys to go get a box of grid squares, a hundred yards of flight line, a package of chem light batteries, and a can of blue squelch (not the red - it's flammable).

[SLAG]

T. P.

I have the same problem as you. You are not alone. Sometimes it feels that way.

We could trade stories and anecdotes by the hour. Multiple choice questions generate many answers depending on which criterion the questioner meant but did not enunciate.

I much preferred oral examinations to written ones.

My ex used to tell folks, at parties, that "if you ask him to put tab A into slot B he'll ask you from which side."

This impediment has its uses. It came in handy when I was asked to construe contract clauses, or patent claims. I had a high kill rate. Often, reading the material with a mind willing to misconstrue. Which the client wanted. It proved invaluable for many of them!

Regards,

SLAG.

[ThomasPowers]

*Brother*!  (well not genetically of course; more by association...)

[Lou L]

I get the feeling that there are a few more folk with that "problem" on here.  For years I avoided the professional world because it never turned out that they really wanted someone who "thinks outside of the box" but they always put it in the job description.  I learned quickly that solving problems in an organization creates change that others can't handle and makes enemies.

 

Wish I found a career that celebrated my predilection for questioning the status quo and finding flaws in accepted practice.  Instead, I've learned to not speak my mind or soften the message.  So yeah Frosty, feel free to pick on me for being an English teacher.  I deserve it, I'm a teacher.  I made the active choice to do a job where the only people who dislike me more than my students do are journalists, politicians, businessmen, school administrators and parents!

[Frosty]

Sorry Lou I can't give you grief for being a teacher, an English Major oh you betcha but not for being a teacher. I mean really, what could I possibly say?

Part of my first session in my shop with me showing you stuff talk goes like this. "I can't teach you ANYTHING, all I can do is present you with information answer questions and keep you reasonably safe. If you want to learn it's on YOUR shoulders." Then I give them a short list of things to get yourself 86d for and the My shop, My way or there's the door bit.

I've found students will live up to your expectations, if you expect them to be delicate sensitive flowers that's what you get. Expect them to pay attention, think, put in the effort and excel they do. No student tests me twice, well not seriously. I'm pretty well maxed out teaching 3 people in the shop at one time now but once they've had a couple few sessions I like putting them together they teach each other.

Teaching is a good thing, I didn't post more than 20,000 times because I don't like helping folk who want it.

Boy, that was ore intense than I thought I need me some ketchup!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Buzzkill]

3 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Boy, that was ore intense than I thought I need me some ketchup!

Whatcha smelting?

[Grussingcustomknives]

On August 29, 2016 at 10:51 AM, Buzzkill said:

 

Grussing, you shouldn't ignore that point.   You could give me the best anvil, the most expensive "forging hammer,"  a forge that can turn steel into a July 4th sparkler, all the tooling you can imagine, and I still couldn't turn out the quality or quantity of forged products that some of the guys on here do in an afternoon when they are just puttering around.  If you don't have the combination of knowledge and experience applicable to your task then the tools are only a small part of the equation.  I'm not trying to discourage you, but it's entirely possible that you may fail at pattern welding with a given forge when someone else could be successful using your forge and tools.  I don't know how you will ever be "110%" sure (and I personally hate the use of 110%) until/unless you have actually done it.  Even stating that you want to make sure it can reach forge welding temperatures is not a guarantee, since as Thomas pointed out there are people who seem to be able to forge weld at what appear to be unbelievably low temperatures for doing so.

Yea true it will take practice I just want to make sure the forge is capable to get to welding temp

Ok ill wont ask any questions unless I really need one in the build. Gonna forge out the flare tommorow got the pipe sanded 

I still have too pick up ss pipe for the nozzle

[Mikey98118]

There isn't anything complicated about the accelerators if you buy schedule 80 1/8" pipe nipples, instead of schedule 40, from some outfit like McMaster Carr; then you can tap the 1/4-28 thread for the MIG tip directly into them. Also look on the Burners 101 thread for other valuable construction tips that aren't found in that sixteen year old text.

I see that your pipe will need to have the zinc coating burned away for about 4" from the end that will mount the flame nozzle, or you can soak it off by soaking that end in vinegar.

[Frosty]

11 hours ago, Buzzkill said:

Whatcha smelting?

A typo? I was trying for an unalloyed statement.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Teaching English in America in today's world is a job to make Leopold Von Sacher-Masoch *smile*.   Though I must confess I learned most of my English grammar from my Spanish teacher.  He would not let our lack of knowledge of our own language interfere with teaching Spanish to us.  Probably the best teacher I have ever had in any subject!

[Grussingcustomknives]

8 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

There isn't anything complicated about the accelerators if you buy schedule 80 1/8" pipe nipples, instead of schedule 40, from some outfit like McMaster Carr; then you can tap the 1/4-28 thread for the MIG tip directly into them. Also look on the Burners 101 thread for other valuable construction tips that aren't found in that sixteen year old text.

I see that your pipe will need to have the zinc coating burned away for about 4" from the end that will mount the flame nozzle, or you can soak it off by soaking that end in vinegar.

Ok cool thats a time saver I will order that plus some other pieces. That pipe i sent u a picture of is black pipe sanded down

[Alan Evans]

On 30 August 2016 at 0:17 AM, ThomasPowers said:

Frosty would that be a right handed or left handed gofer wrench and do NOT confuse it with a gopher winch!

Whatever you do...Do not get on the wrong side of the gofer wench!

On 30 August 2016 at 3:26 AM, Lou L said:

Even being a green at the forge it seemed odd to me that an experienced smith would be proclaiming the benefits of fast heat for forge welding.  Everything I've learned says that the steel should be allowed to soak and get even heat all the way through.

As I am what passes for an experienced smith, however odd.  I too would proclaim the benefits of as much power as you can afford in your furnace and your hammers or press...you may be familiar with the phrase "time is money"...power and speed is all.

The other relevant and associated phrase is "strike while the iron is hot". If you can heat it faster and hit it harder you can produce more goods to sell...But it is not just true from a financial point of view for a professional blacksmith, from an aesthetic point of view things which are made efficiently have that fresh aura which can be read by the viewer. Overworked is bad.

A couple of points regarding the usual slightly dismissive comments about fan blown burners. While I know that NA burners are perfectly capable of bringing a billet to welding temperature, the idea that they all can do it at the optimum speed is patently unsound.  While soaking at the optimum temperature is ideal, IMO it is not so much an issue of burner type which will get you there faster but of furnace construction. For speed of heating a billet or larger section material, if you use a lightweight furnace construction and rely mainly on the flame for the heat it is not as efficient or fast as a heavily constructed furnace wall which acts as a heat reservoir and is not so affected by the lump of cold metal placed inside it. Efficient as far as heat transfer goes not gas/energy economy/efficiency goes of course.

The advantages of the blown burner in this case is that the furnace can be pretty well enclosed, with little or no heat loss through dragon's breath or radiant heat. The atmosphere can be trimmed as easily as one does with an oxy-acetylene torch in order to make it slightly more carburising and reduce any oxidisation. 

Regarding the slightly better mobility of NA burners which often seems to come up...you are still lumping a gas cylinder around and need refills so it is hardly "off the grid". Mine are all in relatively fixed positions in the workshop but portability may be useful for your purposes. If you have a look at Cecil Swann's gas forges ( http://gasforges.co.uk/forges/portable-forges-and-mobile-forges/standard ) they are all based on the same NA burner and he supplies a 12 volt trimmer fan (so you can control the atmosphere)  with a mains transformer for the workshop or a cigar lighter plug for the farriers' van should you need it.

As it is, I just happen to use a large fan with a slide valve on my small furnace (a Ø600mm (Ø2') 1hp 3 phase motor) and a small fan (1/3hp single phase brush/speed controlled) on my large twin burner furnace. The fact that I can turn them up or down means that you do not have to worry about precisely matching volumes and capacities. 

Perceptions of simplicity are fairly subjective, I find it simpler to use a system that I can adjust from one moment to the next depending on the project.

Whether the disputed three times faster is true or not...does it make any difference in the real world of non-professional blacksmithing? There is always something else to do while you wait...like make your mark II furnace and burner.

Alan

[Grussingcustomknives]

8 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

There isn't anything complicated about the accelerators if you buy schedule 80 1/8" pipe nipples, instead of schedule 40, from some outfit like McMaster Carr; then you can tap the 1/4-28 thread for the MIG tip directly into them. Also look on the Burners 101 thread for other valuable construction tips that aren't found in that sixteen year old text.

I see that your pipe will need to have the zinc coating burned away for about 4" from the end that will mount the flame nozzle, or you can soak it off by soaking that end in vinegar.

Also 1 more thing the forge will be 5.5 inches id and 11 inches long it will be about 275 cubic inches (with no kiln shelf) and i know a 3/4 inch mikey burner can bring that up to welding temp but will the heat distribution be bad? Someone thought I should use 2 1/2 burners instead but I already started on the 3/4 inch burner

[MonkeyForge]

How you aim the burner can make big difference in how evenly you heat the forge liner. Somebody else will be more qualified to tell you how your burner would be best aimed. It is dependant on the eventual shape of your forge, which seems to be a tube.

[Grussingcustomknives]

24 minutes ago, MonkeyForge said:

How you aim the burner can make big difference in how evenly you heat the forge liner. Somebody else will be more qualified to tell you how your burner would be best aimed. It is dependant on the eventual shape of your forge, which seems to be a tube.

Yea true. I hear some people put it in the back and shoot and twirl the flame out the front some put in front and shoot and twirl to the back and some just put in middle parrel and twirl. Anyone have suggestions on what will be good for my regular tube forge?

[Alan Evans]

I have always set mine tangentially so they create a rotational swirl. 

My small furnace based on a Ø150mm (Ø6") tube is actually split horizontally and the top half is raised by a vertical wall comprised one fire brick width. The burner is set centrally and tangentially to the bottom "gutter" and swirls in either direction. The workpieces are supported clear of the gutter and the flame swirls around them giving a fairly even spread of heat. I can favour one end or the other by leaving a larger gap/exhaust between the end blocks. The burner is fixed to the bottom section so that the top half can be lifted by another fire brick width or three if necessary for the size of project.

The big furnace burners are mounted high and blow across the ceiling of the furnace, the cross section of the furnace is like a squashed octagon. A landscape rectangle with 45˚ angled corners. The angles deflect the flame rather than create turbulence so again a swirl is formed.

But these are blown burners and when heating I try and block up any gaps so you cannot see a glow inside.

Cecil Swann's forges (see earlier link above) are top mounted and blow directly onto the floor...Cecil has made a good business manufacturing many thousands of forges to his design...I haven't!

Alan

 

[Grussingcustomknives]

Well I tried to forge the flare for the air holes it didn't work too good.

1 hour ago, Alan Evans said:

I have always set mine tangentially so they create a rotational swirl. 

My small furnace based on a Ø150mm (Ø6") tube is actually split horizontally and the top half is raised by a vertical wall comprised one fire brick width. The burner is set centrally and tangentially to the bottom "gutter" and swirls in either direction. The workpieces are supported clear of the gutter and the flame swirls around them giving a fairly even spread of heat. I can favour one end or the other by leaving a larger gap/exhaust between the end blocks. The burner is fixed to the bottom section so that the top half can be lifted by another fire brick width or three if necessary for the size of project.

The big furnace burners are mounted high and blow across the ceiling of the furnace, the cross section of the furnace is like a squashed octagon. A landscape rectangle with 45˚ angled corners. The angles deflect the flame rather than create turbulence so again a swirl is formed.

But these are blown burners and when heating I try and block up any gaps so you cannot see a glow inside.

Cecil Swann's forges (see earlier link above) are top mounted and blow directly onto the floor...Cecil has made a good business manufacturing many thousands of forges to his design...I haven't!

Alan

 

Ok cool I think I might do mine like the high temp tools sell

[Grussingcustomknives]

I ordered some parts on mc master carr (including 1/8 inch scedule 80 pipe 5 inches long) and it was spendy i had too order 8 ss set screws they were 5-6 bucks a piece!!!