Forges 101

[NickVanWA]

Did you see the Febtech hexagon forge from the same seller? It appears to show  air slots in the burner, and unpainted shell (it looks heavily "inspired" by the Mr Volcano in some ways).

[Mikey98118]

 

Using an angle grinder to do your steel work, with more safety

There are 2”, 3”, 4”, and 5” long stainless-steel extension shafts available to be mounted directly on the 10mm spindle thread of 4” (100mm) angle grinders. There are also the same length extension shafts available for mounting on the 5/8-11 spindle thread of 4-1/2” and larger angle grinders. These allow a used cutting disc with say 3” diameter remaining) to be used on angle grinders without the grinder’s angle head from interfering with your view of the work.    

     And/or, you can buy a conversion chuck that allows 4” (100mm) angle grinders to spin ¼” and smaller mandrels, and also have the equivalent of an angle head die grinder to work with. Suddenly all the accessories for die grinders and rotary tools will be open to your use, including 1-1/4” resin bonded cutoff discs. Conversion chucks are regular Jacobs keyed chucks that screw right onto the 10mm threads of 4” (100mm) angle grinder spindles; they only cost about $12 (conversion chucks for 5/8-11threads found on 4-1/2” grinders are only occasionally available. Attempting to use drill chucks on angle grinders for drilling steel, is a bad idea. These grinders spin much too fast for drill bits in ferrous alloys. But for your needs, these chucks are a workable alternative to no available tool for burner construction. For equipment construction, their power can actually be quite helpful—in diligent hands.

More safety then what? Using an angle grinder for cutting without an extension shaft; that's what.

[Mikey98118]

4" versus 4-1/2" angle grinders

About four decades back, Makita marketed the first 5" angle grinders, and their 4" models came out the next year; I bought both, and they each had their plus and minus points. But 4-1/2" grinders started out as an afterthought. Why? Because then as now, 4" grinding wheels were a rip-off. However, flap discs have all but replaced sandpaper discs, and they are not only way cheaper then 4" grinding wheels, but are faster and smoother working!

But during this period 4-1/2" angle grinders have so dominated the market that 4" angle grinders are usually only available from Makita. Also during this period angle grinders of all sizes have become higher and higher powered: for general shop work, that is a plus. But for more delicate work, it's a hazarous; especiall in surface cutting. Makita's 4" angle grinder still has less power than any other 120V angle grinder you can buy.

But the differences don't stop there. Although extension shafts and conversion chucks are available in both 10mm thread (for 4" grinder spindles), and 5/8-11 thread (for 4-1/2" grinder spindles), their are far more choices available for 10mm thread; these means that competition provides lower prices, more availability, and better quality in the 10mm thread products.

Most of this stuff is built in one Asian country or another, and are primarily built for local markets first, and exports second. If you want to be able to do the most tricks with your equipment, go 10mm. If you're buying a grinder for the average steel shop or shipyard, then go for the 4-1/2" over-amped monsters, because all the latest nifty accessories aren't really built for American consumption these days

But, but, isn't America the biggest market in the world ?/!? No, Europe equals us, and they are metric, just like Asia is

 

 

 

[Another FrankenBurner]

We are slowly converting. Inch by inch. Still seems like miles away though. 

[Mikey98118]

I think foreign imports are doing more to convert the USA over to the metric system than the self-styled intelligentsia ever could.  

[George N. M.]

In the 1950s the US military converted to the metric system to avoid operational confusion with our NATO allies.  Hence, the WW2 .30 M1 Garand rifle but the 7.62 mm M-14 rifle and the M-60 machine gun in the 1950s.  This wasn't a big jump in some applications since during WW2 military distances, e.g. the maximum range of a weapon, was expressed in yards.  Since a yard is .9144 of a meter this was not a large change in numbers.

As a result of my military background I handle metric distance, weight, and volume just fine.  I have less mental ease with the centigrade temperature system.  I always have to stop and think or calculate to decide if it is going to be 38 degrees C if I should wear a jacket or a tee shirt.

I often use millimeters in the shop when measuring small distances rather than 1/16ths of an inch.  And if I want the center of something it is easier to divide centimeters/millimeters in half rather than doing the same to fractions of an inch.

Mike, IMO it is not a "self-styled intelligensia" trying to force the metric system down an unwilling population's throats.  It is only common sense and logic to use a 10 based system.  If Thomas Jefferson had had his way the new United States would have adopted the French originated metric system in the 18th century to increase the separation from England.  Feet, inches, and miles are not "freedom units." They are an anachronistic carry over from the Romans and Medieval England.  Other countries have converted just fine with few problems.  If the Swedes can switch from driving on the left to on the right in a couple of days changing the measurement system looks pretty painless to me.

George

[Another FrankenBurner]

Not having to have two sets of tools, which look almost identical, would be great.

It’s especially nice when I get to work on equipment that uses both.

Having to teach the new guys fractions is generally entertaining.  Hey, I have 49/64ths, I need the next 64th down. Wait, you have to be good at math to run a tape measure?  I once got a call out of “half inch plus three little ones.”

[Mikey98118]

2 hours ago, George N. M. said:

Mike, IMO it is not a "self-styled intelligensia" trying to force the metric system down an unwilling population's throats.

I happen to agree with you about the metric system being much more practical than feet and inches, let alone fractions of an inch! Just because an idea is practical, doesn't stop some people from trying to came it down other peoples throats; that is what happened in the early sixties at my high school. We poor little nobody students were expected to just shut up and go along with the program--we didn't. Perhaps one of the things that contributed to the revolt was that the previous year these same people tried to tells we needed to learn "new math"; this despite the fact that Texas Instruments was already selling pocket calculators that crunched the old math far faster than any teacher could do new math!

Yet, one of the first tools I voluntarily bought for myself was a metric tape measure, so as to more quickly divide the pickets in ornamental iron gates, and end up with perfectly even spaces. One thing was being pushed by people who that they had a right to; the other thing was practical.

[ThomasPowers]

And then the looks on peoples faces when you lay out oddball dimensions using  set a dividers...balancing steel on a finger to get the 1/2 way point, etc...

[JHCC]

I bought my first metric ruler when I started working in the violin repair shop, as everything there was done in metric.

For the last few years, I've done almost all of my design work with a straightedge, a compass, and a divider, paying very little attention to numerical measurements in any system other than for the grossest of dimensions. 

[Frosty]

Foot inch has the advantage of being base 12 making 1/3 a simple number and it's easy to improvise with a piece of string and marker. 

I like metric for most applications but they don't mix well. Of course most modern measuring tools have both scales. 

I believe the first debate regarding metric vs English standard occurred in the US was during the First(?) Continental Congress, Ben Franklin argued the pro but the argument that the public wasn't intelligent enough to learn a new system prevailed. That argument has been the standard Con as far back as I remember and persists.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Another FrankenBurner]

I built a shed. When installing siding, I realized a 2 inch discrepancy. I am a measure 3 times, cut once kind of person. Also a hobbyist machinist. Two inches was unacceptable. I had to get to the bottom of it.

Turned out, the open reel measuring tape that I was using had two different sides. One in feet/inches and one in feet/tenths of a foot. A tenth of a foot looks close enough to an inch that I never even noticed.  How I got as far as I did without noticing is a mystery.

I had a good laugh, learned my lesson, and covered my shame with siding.  Glad it wasn’t critical. 

[George N. M.]

Thomas, back in my geologist days I was regularly threatening to do quantity of ore estimates in poods per arpent.

Frankenburner:  The reason that long tapes are sometimes graduated in tenths of a foot is that surveyors use decimals of a foot in measurements.

GNM

[JHCC]

42 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

One in feet/inches and one in feet/tenths of a foot. A tenth of a foot looks close enough to an inch that I never even noticed.

I had a vernier caliper once that measured in both normal fractions of an inch as well as decimal fractions of an inch. It actually made it fairly easy to convert to decimals for doing arithmetic on a digital calculator.

[Frosty]

I have a really cheap pair of digital calipers that measure in decimal and fractional inches and metric. Cost less than $10 at a local "liquidation closeout sale" place but darned thing checked out to under a 0.000,01" on Dad's gauge blocks. I use them mostly to tell metric from SAE bolts, drill bits, etc. rather than actually measuring.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

The cheaper (one step up from cheapest) digital calipers sold through Amazon.com, only measure to the nearest thousandth of an inch, which is no problem for my needs. However, their electronics can be very flighty. I have one caliper that has a battery fitted into a plastic sliding pocket on its exterior. By sliding the pocket out of place for about 1/8", the electronics reset, once the battery is back in place; sort of similar to turning a computer off to reset it. works like a charm.

Your ten buck caliper would costs hundreds of dollars, if you tried to buy it today, Frosty

[Frosty]

They're only maybe 3-4 years old. Hmm, now you have me curious I'll maybe have to drive out and take a look.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jimw3326]

Frosty, If you look at the head of the bolt, SAE will have bars denoting the grade, metric has numbers.

[gewoon ik]

George, with degrees i have the same but with F.

With volume, distance, ... it is easy. 0 is nothing and a big number is something big. Even if you have only halve of an idea what it really means.

With temperature, they only share -40. So even the below zero means something completly different. For us celcius guys, it is also freezing, the freezing of water. Simple (for me atleast). But with F, i never know for sure if people talk about freezing, they mean below zero F or the water is freezing (carwindows are freezing over in the morning). 

The conversion is also not as easy as. Devide by a number (number depends on precision you want). No add/subtract a number and devide. Yeah easy .

 

For my strangly windspeeds are also hard for me. Speed in knots or mention beaufortscale and I can see wind and waves. Mention it in m/s (why you use that offshore, you are not industry) or km/h or miles and I always have to convert because all the others make no sence to me.

[Frosty]

Yes they do, I use the calipers to determine the size, I'm sometimes making stuff up as I go and get out my tap and die set and drill indexes to match something.

Say making up a pully to a 3hp, 220v ac motor I savaged out of a hot tub, the shaft is definitely not SAE and I don't have any pullies for a metric shaft. Or IDing the studs without having to go through my nut selection one by one. Even if I can eyeball within a 2-3 nut choice it's faster and easier to use the calipers, seconds rather than minutes and two trips to the nuts and bolts shelf.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

ITC-100 today

So, there has been more than a little confusion over the last few years about what Frosty recalled that ITC-100 consisted of, and mine. One thing we wondered about was if the product had changed over time. My half-pint jar came today ($15 from Mr Volcano Forge). Whether it is like the product Frosty used, I can't know. But just looking at it, and thumping the rather solid mass of it in its jar, made it obvious that it is nothing like the product I bought twenty-three years ago. I look forward to playing with the new stuff this spring.

[Frosty]

Dang it I may have to order some myself. I'd hate to think I've been maligning an improved product all these years. It will most certainly be this spring before I mess with it or much of anything in the shop. We're under a blizzard warning tonight, The wind is supposed to pick up anytime and hit 60+mph while the low is supposed to be around -5f. 

Nope, not even going to look at the shop for a while. <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Even if I'd known about the change, I would not have bought it at its usual ridiculously high prices.

[gewoon ik]

So itc-100 is good?

I better look for more isolating stones to make better doors (and a doormechanism) so the efficiancy of my forge improves. (Devil forge). It is getting plenty hot, i can get steel white. But with a price, gasconsumption is skyhigh (4hours)

With a baffle at the back (1cm or 1/2"  away from the forge) it is better. Turning it down to "only" a yellow also.

But now something for the front. 

Now i get 10hours yellow heat out of my tank (12kg propane). 

If i get 12hours at yellow i am happy. To improve more, the shell needs thicker isulation I think.

 

[Mikey98118]

9 hours ago, gewoon ik said:

If i get 12hours at yellow i am happy. To improve more, the shell needs thicker insulation I think.

Remember that by far the greatest percentage of heat is lost out of the exhaust opening; not through the shell. So, why do we insulate our forges, if this is true? To increase the amount of radiant heat that is emitted from the refractory surfaces, to bounce back and forth within the forge. This is why heat-reflecting (re-emission) coatings on the forge's interior surfaces, and on the inward facing sides of forge doors and baffle walls are worth more than an extra two inches of insulation added to the first two inches worth.