elmoleaf Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 I recently had occasion to visit West Point, including Constitution Island across the Hudson River. There they have some reproduction links of the Great Chain that was stretched across the Hudson River to prevent British ships from passing. It was floated on log rafts across the river. Each link is about 2' long. A short climb through the woods at the island brought us to Redoubt #7, which has a commanding view across the Hudson towards West Point (third picture). Along the way, we passed an old stone wall, on which was resting a rather large abandoned piece of wrought iron. The last pic (not mine) are the only existing links of the original chain. They reside at Trophy Point within the West Point grounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 My cousin Benedict didn't think much of the chain, but it was never put to the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Looks like it could have had a giant bath plug on it! "think far side cartoon" and Captain Wallace threatened to drain the river. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jspool Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 One has to ponder as to how a couple of those links got twisted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 There's a lot of force in moving water and log rafts have a lot of cross section to the flow. If a storm or flood caused one of more to capsize and one or more of the swivels jammed, left of center last pic. then I'm amazed the chain isn't twisted up like cup o noodles. I'm amazed a chain that small survived stretching across let alone 10 years in the flow. Thanks for the pics. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Not that I am carping from any nationalist pique, (one nation of blacksmiths, thats me) But the reproduction links in the first and second photos are a pretty poor show...If they weren't going to reproduce them in fire welded wrought iron they could at least have ground off the arc welds to make them invisible. The shackle and swivel of the original links look rather grand though. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I'm guessing they were made before the renaissance of smithing in the USA and so to a lower "standard" as we have learned much in the last handful of decades. (Look at Pleiner's "The Celtic Sword" where his experiments are not done with piled repros as he couldn't find someone to make them that way; I could name a score of folks who could off the top of my head nowadays.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Probably the case...but you did have professional smithing shops going before during and after Mr Bealer's revelation. Yellin had a continuum for instance. Though it is not unknown for those that commission such things to be horribly ignorant of the area over which they profess expertise and hold sway. Alan PS even the anchor fixing staple thingy is totally unsympathetic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I agree about the clip.... I am sure that is not how they anchored it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmoleaf Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 It's just as well I didn't take photos of the longer "reproduction" they had at the island; it was a dozen or so links of laminated plywood painted black! The caretaker was a very knowledgeable fellow; it would not surprise me to find the inauthenticity bothers him. It would be an amazing project if someone with the means could give the Army a more authentic reproduction. The site itself is not easily accessed by the general public. As an aside, apparently in the early 1900s someone was passing off ship anchor chain as being genuine links from the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 51 minutes ago, elmoleaf said: It's just as well I didn't take photos of the longer "reproduction" they had at the island; it was a dozen or so links of laminated plywood painted black! The caretaker was a very knowledgeable fellow; it would not surprise me to find the inauthenticity bothers him. It would be an amazing project if someone with the means could give the Army a more authentic reproduction. The site itself is not easily accessed by the general public. As an aside, apparently in the early 1900s someone was passing off ship anchor chain as being genuine links from the original. Sorry to be so negative about a significant historical memorial! I don't know anything about the history but I would not be at all surprised if they hadn't strung a load of old anchor chains across rather than making a bespoke chain. I guess it depends how much time they had to set it up...needs must when the enemy is on its way. Anchor chains would have caused enough delay to the boats and done the job. Presumably the idea was bringing them under fire while they tried to cut through. Is there any documentary evidence that it was anything other than an expedient measure? Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 When did the use of chains for anchors really become common? I would have thought that at that period ropes would be more common and a sailor with an axe stationed for fast getaways! Aha! http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/pG66khGiQqqWz2aoxA9lCg "1808 Samuel Brown, a Naval Leutenant, fitted out a Navy vessel, the 'Penelope' with chain anchor cables and rigging and sailed her to the West Indies to prove the superiority of iron chains" So in the 1770's unlikely to use anchor chains for river defenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Interesting link.... Blimey some monopoly...if Brown Lennox made all the chain for the navy for over a hundred years. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 5 hours ago, Alan Evans said: Interesting link.... Blimey some monopoly...if Brown Lennox made all the chain for the navy for over a hundred years. Alan Back "'in the days " when a Tender was what you used to get on and off ships, not a means of acquisition I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, ianinsa said: Back "'in the days " when a Tender was what you used to get on and off ships, not a means of acquisition I suppose. And now it's what you hope for in a steak. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I have just taken delivery of a Tenderum. It arrived yesterday in the post, it was on half price offer. It is a little electronic calculator which averages temperature and time to monitor a deer carcass to tenderise the meat. Based on forty degree days. I.e. Forty days at 1 degree C, ten days at 4 degrees C and etc. Which curiously links the last few posts together. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 3 hours ago, Alan Evans said: I have just taken delivery of a Tenderum. It arrived yesterday in the post, it was on half price offer. It is a little electronic calculator which averages temperature and time to monitor a deer carcass to tenderise the meat. Based on forty degree days. I.e. Forty days at 1 degree C, ten days at 4 degrees C and etc. Which curiously links the last few posts together. Alan Interesting megafter? So almost 2 days at 25C equals tender? Not ripe?... I suppose it will be tender! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Yes well, it does not want to get much above 4˚C. Certainly not above 7˚ C 'cos the bugs really get going then. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Alan, have you been taking the deer in the King's Forest again? Historically this was frowned upon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Alan, have you been taking the deer in the King's Forest again? Historically this was frowned upon.... It did however save you on travel expenses to Australia and you weren't bothered by those snooty border control fellas that you see on TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Historically it was the USA....Australia came about after a "heated discussion" between the colonies and England closed off that method... (Georgia's start as a penal colony is a bit over rated as prisoners were sent to most of the original 13 colonies as a source of "labour") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 WOW, I'm really getting sidetracked. Not complaining mind you, I'm usually at the forefront of sidetracks. It occurred to me though after putting a couple things together. First about the chain being supported by log rafts. Secondly Thomas' contribution as to how unlikely it was to stretch an iron chain across a river at that time. So in a flash of tender steak dreams and wondering where the women were kept in the days of penal colonies I realized the river was probably blockaded by a log chain. It wouldn't take 1% the iron to shackle logs end to end, be more transportable and easier to maintain. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 No just that they were not able to cobble together *anchor* *chains* as they were not a common item---at that time! I fully believe they could have commissioned a special purpose chain and would bet it would be merchant bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 You can even use log dogs to connect some of the adjacent logs.and chain other logs together. That is e.g. first 2 logs connected by a dog, The third log is connected to log number four by a dog. And log units 1-2 and 3-4 are chained together, and the next four log assembly are connected in a similar fashion and chained to log assembly 1, 2, 3, 4 . This would result in an intercalated series. Other sequences can be fashioned (e.g. 123 dog connected and chained to another assembly . The choice would depend on the desired flexibility and strength of the whole chain, or other considerations. More than one dog can be used for each connection to make a more robust linkage Log dogs are fairly easy to forge. A lot easier then forging a chain and take less time. Just my two cents worth. SLAG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Pretty easy to remove too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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