The Great Chain across the Hudson, 1778

[Alan Evans]

9 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Alan, have you been taking the deer in the King's Forest again?  Historically this was frowned upon....

Like a lot of historical facts it depends who is writing the history....the people eating the deer were not frowning!

Alan

[Alan Evans]

I found a fascinating book online about what became of the Hudson river chains, there were a number of them and yes, it looks like they were bespoke. They were only in place for a few years. There are a number of letters concerning their storage, preservation and disposal. Various reports of the British cutting one and carrying some of it away and letting the rest sink, and someone grappling in order to salvage a length. Various reports as to the weight of the chain links from 40lbs to 400lbs each. The repro ones in the first photo, if they are 2' long and from 2" square would be around 80lbs.

The rumour that they had just let the chains sink when decommissioned, because they were too heavy to bring ashore, was rubbished because of there raw material values, and that they were regularly brought in during the winter months.

Oh and just a word on words...I just happened to notice the original documentation referred to them (in English) as a river defence...rather than a river defense. Guess it took some time for you colonials to forget how to spell.

Thank you for the photos Elmoleaf I have enjoyed the diversion and learning something new.

Alan

[ThomasPowers]

or for spelling to be codified---how many ways did Shakespeare spell his last name? and I don't mean "Bacon"...

[Alan Evans]

Frank-ly...I don't know...

Alan

PS Get the picture?

[Frosty]

55 minutes ago, Alan Evans said:

Frank-ly...I don't know...

Alan

PS Get the picture?

Uh HUH, leave it to a Brit to believe he has to paint a picture of the obvious. It's Frankly a portrait.

Frosty The Lucky.

[SLAG]

Mr. Evans,

Canada was a colony as well as the United States. There are two official languages in Canada, namely English and French. The French spelling is defence. The English spelling is defense. Both spellings are correct in Canada. I suspect that defence is deemed a variant spelling in the United States as well.

I find your gibe "Guess it took some time for you colonials to forget how to spell" not funny. It is offensive. I do not know why you had to insult a majority of the members of this site.

Tens of thousands of Canadians, Newfoundlanders, and Americans died saving Great Britain from her enemies during both World Wars.  (It is ironic that it is the hundredth anniversary, this week, of the World War One Battle of the Somme, a horrific slaughter courtesy of General Haig.  Haig and his retinue of British military savants ran, for several weeks, several hundred thousands of us colonials, and British soldiers, into a maelstrom of machine gun crossfire).

I find your smug, supercilious comment is gratuitous and insulting.

SLAG.

[Alan Evans]

I am sorry my comment was offensive to you.

 

The intention was one of continuing the joshing common to this forum, and was intended as a mildly ironic reference to the relationship and well known differences between the spelling in the English language and that of US English. Not better or worse, just different.

Oscar Wilde referred to the English and US citizens as a similar people divided buy a common language, and there are a number of humorous  songs which are in the same vein. 

It was certainly not intended to be taken seriously, hence the smiley face.

My apologies to yourself and any others who were offended. 

Alan

 

[ThomasPowers]

Hey at least they spell Vice correctly across the pond!   Here in the States I find that Vises are a major Vice for me and respect them for shortening the difference!

[Alan Evans]

8 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Hey at least they spell Vice correctly across the pond!   Here in the States I find that Vises are a major Vice for me and respect them for shortening the difference!

This is too serious a post for leg pulling...

Alan

[SLAG]

Apology accepted,

and appreciated.

Thank you,

SLAG.

[Alan Evans]

8 minutes ago, SLAG said:

Apology accepted,

and appreciated.

Thank you,

SLAG.

It might help explain where my attempt at humour was coming from...you might care to check out the July 4. song "**** you England" on the college humour youtube channel for a recent (rather coarser) example of the way the "special relationship" and national characteristics of the UK and US are lampooned (and celebrated).

This thread is based on an historical object from the few years that our countries were not on the same side; and although I feel I have more in common with other blacksmiths irrespective of their nationality...I like to think of myself as primarily a citizen of the Nation of Blacksmiths...my poor joke was in part in reference to the thread theme. 

Having been at war 200 + years ago, we can be happy the there have been many more years of peace and cooperation. One of the minor existing differences is alternative spellings of a few words, which I am afraid I do find a source of mild amusement.

Alan

[Glenn]

Another example of the site self correcting, in short order.  Thank you both for your comments.

Now to get back to the original post of putting a chain across a river.

[ianinsa]

Alan , that article on the 'fake Hudson chain ' was indeed interesting, one born every minute as Dellboy would have it(reference to 'only Fools and horses') (portrait for Frosty )

I wondered if there were indications of some 'mechanical device for chain lifting/removal at the site?

4 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Hey at least they spell Vice correctly across the pond!   Here in the States I find that Vises are a major Vice for me and respect them for shortening the difference!

TP , you must have been legless when you posted this as we were on about the Hudson Not Colombian!

[ianinsa]

7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

or for spelling to be codified---how many ways did Shakespeare spell his last name? and I don't mean "Bacon"...

"M a c o n "in reverence to the Sabbath

[Alan Evans]

 

1 hour ago, ianinsa said:

Alan , that article on the 'fake Hudson chain ' was indeed interesting, one born every minute as Dellboy would have it(reference to 'only Fools and horses') (portrait for Frosty )

I wondered if there were indications of some 'mechanical device for chain lifting/removal at the site?

TP , you must have been legless when you posted this as we were on about the Hudson Not Colombian!

http://www.hudsonrivervalley.org/library/pdfs/articles_books_essays/popolopen.pdf

http://www.hudsonrivervalley.org/review/pdfs/hvrr_7pt1_diamant.pdf

The fuller account of the chains afterlife is in The Saga of Hudson's River Great Chains by Edmee J. Hills which is in google books.

As far as I read it was 2 or 3 hundred squaddies who were given the task of deploying and removing the chains...and they evidently did not much like the job. so whether it was just manpower or horses, cranes and manpower I have not found. When the logs had been in the water some time they lost buoyancy but presumably they could let it go in the middle and let the two ends float with the current to the banks then haul ashore...various estimates of weight but 50 or 60 tonnes was one. A swivel link every 1,000 lbs.

C'mon I have already done the leg and post joke...nice twist with the Columbian though

Alan

[Alan Evans]

5 hours ago, Glenn said:

Another example of the site self correcting, in short order.  Thank you both for your comments.

Now to get back to the original post of putting a chain across a river.

Glen, given the strong reaction my comment provoked from SLAG, would you care to edit my post to ensure that it does not offend anybody else in the future? One could make it strictly factual and read something along the lines of:-

Oh and just a word on words...I just happened to notice the original documentation referred to them (in English) as a river defence...rather than a river defense. Guess it took some time before the US English spelling was adopted.

 

Alternatively, retaining some attempt at humour but less cheeky than the original, being more positive and accurate, given that for most people in the world the US English spelling is correct:-

Oh and just a word on words...I just happened to notice the original documentation referred to them (in English) as a river defence...rather than a river defense. Guess it took some time for you colonials to learn how to spell.

 

I always assumed that the US English dictionary spellings were a rationalisation and simplification, based on phonetics in order to remove the weird anomalies in English spelling. All the usual suspects I can think of conform to that, but it would be interesting to know if there was any other reason.

I am so glad in this instance I did not compound the error and include the old joke / wordplay / innuendo / double entendre about "Revolting Colonists". Though it might have made my comment more obviously a joke.

I know that the British sense of humour (humor!) which is sometimes self deprecatory and often makes use of irony is reported to be a puzzle to many in the US, but I am genuinely mortified that anybody on IFI would be upset by my contributions. It has been preying on me a bit.

As far as the War of Independence goes my knowledge of its history is poor. Until this thread I was not aware of the Hudson river chains. I dare say our educators preferred to concentrate on the conflicts where the UK prevailed rather than failed. The most significant thing about the Revolution from my childhood was that I was brought up and educated a Quaker. My school received a lot of money from the great quaker companies like Fry and Cadbury. You will probably be aware that they were formerly iron founders who refused to make armaments for the UK government to use against the American Colonists and so diversified into the confectionary industries where their products could not be used against their fellow man. 

Alan

[ianinsa]

37 minutes ago, Alan Evans said:

Fry and Cadbury.  so diversified into the confectionary industries where their products could not be used against their fellow man. 

Alan

Therein killing far more of their fellow man with silent killers like diabetes than their foundry products might have! Sort of sweet irony

[Alan Evans]

5 minutes ago, ianinsa said:

Therein killing far more of their fellow man with silent killers like diabetes than their foundry products might have! Sort of sweet irony

It was not lost on me but I thought my post was convoluted enough.

Sweet irony!  Your brain seems to be working even better than before!

Alan

[ianinsa]

I have booked a flight home on Saturday, somewhat to my wife 's chagrin I'm tired of recovery  and all seems well.

Those books are indeed interesting, thanks for posting links.  I suspect that not only is it a case of history the propaganda of the victors but what is disbursed/taught is screwed further by regional 'loyalties. I remember chatting to a rather distinguished American gentleman on a cruise whom had never even heard of Saladin, never mind his achievements. He professed that this 'history' had to be insignificant as it wasn't widely known. When I asked him about Genghis Khan and the Mongols he said they knew about that as it was caused by a drug called Thalidomide.?   hence I enjoy reading about 'everyone's ' history in order to reduce my own ignorance

[Randy Bill]

Mr. Evans, thanks for the most interesting story. Much appreciated.

[Alan Evans]

46 minutes ago, ianinsa said:

I have booked a flight home on Saturday, somewhat to my wife 's chagrin I'm tired of recovery  and all seems well.

Those books are indeed interesting, thanks for posting links.  I suspect that not only is it a case of history the propaganda of the victors but what is disbursed/taught is screwed further by regional 'loyalties. I remember chatting to a rather distinguished American gentleman on a cruise whom had never even heard of Saladin, never mind his achievements. He professed that this 'history' had to be insignificant as it wasn't widely known. When I asked him about Genghis Khan and the Mongols he said they knew about that as it was caused by a drug called Thalidomide.?   hence I enjoy reading about 'everyone's ' history in order to reduce my own ignorance

That is good news and progress.

On a flight from New York to Baltimore (where I was picked up by Bill Gichner and we drove to the Saint Louis ABANA conference) I sat next to a guy to whom I had trotted out my favourite Oscar Wilde quote about being divided by a common language he said ... to an Englishman a 100 miles is a long way... and to an American a 100 years is a long time!

This was compounded at the conference when I met Fred Borcherdt who had driven up to the conference with Tom Joyce. When I asked how far apart they lived, Fred said "A day and a bit"...I was most impressed, having been expecting a reply along the lines of 40 miles!

I agree, International Fora like this one where we gain new insights about others' outlook on the world can only help to reduce our various ignorances and blindspots.

Alan

[ianinsa]

Alan , I wasn't sure if you had noticed it but on page 42 of the first book there is a reference to a silver bullet that I have never seen before!

3 minutes ago, Alan Evans said:

 "A day and a bit"... yea I once had a car like that too.. I eventually scrapped the ruddy thing When I was in the army the drive from base to my parents house was 2555km(1600miles)  a 21 hour drive if you pushed it a bit.

Alan

 

[Alan Evans]

25 minutes ago, ianinsa said:

Alan , I wasn't sure if you had noticed it but on page 42 of the first book there is a reference to a silver bullet that I have never seen before!

 

In the Papillon novels by Henri Charierre about surviving the prison on Devil's Island in French Guiana he referred to those "bullets" as chargers.

The tricksy British who circumvented the Hudson chains and attacked the forts by land were on the side on receiving end when the Germans ignored the defences of the Maginot Line by sneaking around the back...We are doomed to having history repeat itself if we don't learn from it!

Alan

1 hour ago, Randy Bill said:

Mr. Evans, thanks for the most interesting story. Much appreciated.

Glad you enjoyed the articles also...I am finding it a fascinating subject.

Alan

[JHCC]

Couple of fun details about the Great Chain:

The remnant at Trophy Point was deliberately preserved when the chain was dismantled. Not counting the swivel and the clevis, there are thirteen links, one for each of the original colonies.

The chain was accompanied on the downstream side by a log boom that was designed to absorb the impact of a ship attempting to break the chain. A section of this boom was recovered from the river in 1855 and is now displayed at the historic site for Washington's headquarters in nearby Newburgh.

Apart from the preserved links and fittings, the chain was turned over to the West Point furnaces for reuse after the revolution. 

Because the Hudson River is tidal all the way up to Troy, the chain needed to withstand both the force of the current and the daily reversal of the tidal ebb and flow. This was accomplished through a network of pulleys, rollers, and midstream anchors.

The complicated relationship between the West Point fortifications, Benedict Arnold, his second wife Peggy Shippen, and British officer John Andre was the ultimate inspiration for the Fleetwood Mac song "The Chain".  Who knew?

[ThomasPowers]

BTW West Point has an interesting museum containing some very nice examples of swords and historical weaponry: " The mission of the West Point Museum is to collect, preserve, exhibit, and interpret historically significant artifacts pertaining to the United States Military Academy, United States Army and the Profession of Arms."   I can't speak to specifics now as last time I visited was in the early '70's  (1970's...) and I hope the display has been changed several times since then...The Votive Katanas were amazing.