Mikey98118

Burners 101

Recommended Posts

Thanks for taking time to clue in your imitators, 671 jungle :)

I especially like your use of the brass barbed hose fitting to simplify small burner construction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the instructions for your burner and forge fans, 671 jungle. I thought they amounted to a very smart way path to build a hot little 1/4" burner; especially liked your advice to drill the air holes at an angle. Good job :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

Thanks for the instructions for your burner and forge fans, 671 jungle. I thought they amounted to a very smart way path to build a hot little 1/4" burner; especially liked your advice to drill the air holes at an angle. Good job :D

Thank you Mike. I try to live life as simple and intuitive as possible. none of which would have come to light without your help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^&! Jungle: that's an elegantly simple way of making 1/4" burners. Thanks for sharing with everybody. I get almost giddy seeing all the new burners and ways of making them. Thanks for such a sweet burner design.

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike and Frosty fixing to drill holes in multi burner forge. Is the rule of thumb still no closer than the diameter and end no closer than the radius?

 

Thanks Swadly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know of that rule of thumb being applied to multi burner forges. As far as I know spacing holes spaced their radius is for lightening structural components without weakening them. 

There are different strategies for spacing burners in forges and without knowing what kind of temperature gradients you want I have to make a most general suggestion based on even temps full length. That said, space the burners evenly. The burners on the end should be a little closer to the ends.

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read Mikes book and thats what it said. Was just interested if there was any change in strategy ! Thanks for the info.

 

Swadly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There have been updates in specifics since 2004, but no changes in rules of thumb on the book's burners or the heating equipment. That stated, there are updates given in the Burners 101 and Forges 101 threads; they don't contradict the book, but supplement it, if you have the patience to read it all.

Furthermore, there are successful burner and forge changes being dreamed up by others on this forum all the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very informative place with many ways to do things! Thats what has me on here everyday!

 

Thanks for your info sharing!

 

Swadly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello all. My name is Trevor, I'm from east kootenay's BC Canada. 

I'm kinda jumping in here I hope it's ok. 

I want to thank all who have contributed to this thread. I haven't read in full past 2016 yet but I have used that info to come up with this and think I've got it diald in pretty good and I'm kinda hoping for confirmation/advice.(Hopefully it may kinda count as contribution too) 

2"-3/4" bell, 3/4"/8" mixing tube, 1"spacer, 1 1/4" nozzle (apx 1 3/8" I'd at opening) 1 1/2" overhang, 1/8"brass T, 0.035 tweeco apx3/8" above throat. 

First pic is around 12psi the next 3 are 1, 15, 30psi it holds steady the whole way through. I think this is a neutral flame 20190627_164841.thumb.jpg.dd40ff1762b32c246ab95dd2c0dc6e21.jpg, it has a faint hint of propane coming off the flame itself though but I think Mikey mentioned somewhere that's a good burn...? The flame doesn't get much longer through out the range but does get louder and alot hotter. 

It'll be going in this forge once my insulation arrives. (I'll try and make a thread for the whole build once I'm done.)

Anyway thank you all for the info so far, I look forward to catching up on thiswhole thread. 

20190627_145422.jpg

20190627_130510.jpg

20190627_130532.jpg

20190627_130555.jpg

20190627_164841.jpgspan widgepan widget

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome aboard Trevor, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many members live within visiting distance. We're blacksmiths not circus sideshow memory act freaks, we won't remember once your location once we open another post. Having it attached to your AVATAR puts it up front so folks can contact you with the good stuff. Yes?

28 minutes ago, BlueGoat said:

I'm kinda jumping in here I hope it's ok. 

About this part Trevor, new guys just jumping in means one of us gets to rough you up a little. We'll vote on who's turn it is and get back to you. :P

Seriously, that's not a bad looking burner flame the mixing tube is too long though. The rule of thumb regarding the better mixing tube length is. L= 8 x tube Inside Diameter, ID. right? So, what does 8 x 3/4" equal? If you didn't learn to multiply by fractions like I had to, try: 8" x .75" =

That'll give you the better mixing tube length. Put the calipers away it doesn't need to be exact. 

How many cubic inches will it be heating? You'll want to lose the fire brick unless it's "Morgan Thermal Ceramics K-26 insulating fire brick. Hard fire brick is a large heat sink and does't insulate much better than an equal thickness of limestone. It'll take your forge longer to heat up and take more fuel to keep hot. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fixed the location I think. 

Rule of 8-9 would be 6-6.5" I guess. I thought one section Mikey mentioned using 7/8 to figure the rule due to pipes not being actually 3/4. I'll have to find that page again and see what I missed there. 

Following you're general rule Frosty I was making only one adjustment at a time (nozzle) after I found this flame I figured there was no need to muk with the mixing tube. I'll start trimming it down tomorrow and see what happens. 

They're Ifb 2600f for the floor the body will be 2" wool with kastolite. I'm planning on gaining the bricks a coat of kastolite. 330ish ci interior on the rare occasion I'll be able to set the top on a wall of bricks. (will loose welding heat) I may add a jack/crane kinda like your shop forge just cuz. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/7/2016 at 12:35 PM, Mikey98118 said:

Circumstances do alters cases

I like a "nine times" rule of thumb; that means nine times the actual inside diameter of the mixing tube, which for 3/4" schedule 40 water pipe is about 7/8"; equaling 8" from the forward end of a jet ejector burner's air opening(s), or where a linear burner's funnel shape joins the mixing tube,  to the forward end of the mixing tube.

This is where I took the 8"mixing tube from I guess. This is a  3year old comment though so it would be worth it to try a shorter one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So long as I have proper mixing, I like shorter.  

Don't be too worried about it.  Your flame looks good.  If you see any green in the flame, play with nozzle overhang.  I like the overhang to be just enough to hold the flame at the maximum pressure I will use.  If you still have green in your flame after tinkering with the nozzle, start to cut small lengths off the mix tube.  Pay attention to the color of the flame and pay attention to the secondary flame.  If the color goes greener or the secondary flame looks to be increasing in size with the cuts, stop cutting.  

Or do none of this and be happy with the flame you have.  It is a nice flame.  Nice job.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you. No hint of green flame with this set up. I know it's not in the forge but the 1.5 over hang with the nozzle seems to be the sweet spot it is the only position that I found held stable. It literally goes from 1-30psi and stays that clear blue. When I tried a flared 1" alone I got the greeny soft blue colour. I'm going to grab another 3/4" nipple and try a shorter mixing tube. 

Shorter means faster and longer means smoother flame right? I've been jumping back and forth through the first dozen pages for the last couple days trying and I keep forgetting which page I read what. 

I get lost on the first second and third flame. Is this the different flames? Or do I have just one and two in this pic? 

20190627_214902.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shorter is less restriction for air induction but also less length for mixing.  At the extremes shorter produces a bushier more squat flame, longer produces a lengthier sharper pencil like flame.

For the forge, usually shorter is better as the flame is shorter.  The forge also adds some back pressure which can decrease air induction.  Too short and you don't get adequate mixing of the fuel and air.  It's a balance.  

It is a lot to take in at first.  No hurries, no worries.  It sounds like you are where you want to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It really is a lot. But fun. 

The math that makes these work is pretty cool and I'm thankful it's here. 

I'll play around a bit tomorrow with it and see what happens, nipples are cheap. 

Thanks again 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As to your flame, it looks good.  The nomenclature for different flame envelopes depends on who you talk to.  Number 2 in your picture is your primary flame.  Number 3 is sometimes called secondary or tertiary.  Number 1 is the void, it is fuel/air mix(FAM) which is not burning yet.

I was referring to number 3 when I said secondary.  As you see in your flame, the secondary is ghostly.  This is good.  

Here is a labeled example of a rich flame to see the difference:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather than add something more to what they stated, I will just say congratulations; That is an excellent burner. Nice forge too :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That explanation makes a lot of sense and clears things up Franken. I've struggled to find pics including a description like that. Flames can look so much different in pictures, to get these I had to turn the brightness down on my phone to kinda match what my eye sees. 

Thank you for starting this thread Mikey. I'm stoked you approve of the flame as well, your explanations were easyish to follow. I'll add this forge on another page when it's done, in couple weeks hopefully. 

I do want to see if I can get similar results using a 030, I might play with that tomorrow whilst tinkering with the mixing tubes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most likely not. The hardest variable to play with is the jet orifice diameter to mixing tube inside diameter. It's not that it can't be successfully varied; its just not easy. You might be better off to use torch tip cleaners to vary the orifice size of a smaller MIG contact tip a couple of thousandths at a time instead. Just a thought.

Both Frosty and Frankenburner get away with larger jet orifices than I recommend in my designs, but both of their burners have different mixture flow dynamics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One point that seems to create confusion is just what constitute a secondary and/or tertiary flame, rather than vrious areas in a primary flame envelope.

A primary flame only uses the oxygen contained in the fuel/air mixture  coming out of a burner. Secondary and tertiary flames need a secondary air source (usually provided by air induced from flame action, and sucked into the forge between the burner body and burner opening).

It is necessary to understand what is going on with a burner and forge, in order to properly interpret what we are seeing, when observing a flame.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.